When do you become an adult?

TheCatWoman said:

Should we hold someone back from doing "adult" things because they're not 18 even when they're ready?

If we hold back people from being capable of being an adult until later and later in the name of protecting them, then we are delaying their ability to become adults - essentially creating generations of tweenagers who are being held back until later and later.

I started working when I was 15, was seriously considering getting married at 16 (not that rare an occurrance in Scotland in the 1980s) and was off to University at 17 to a few years of drinking, sexual experimentation and all sorts of things that are denied to people these days by law.

I'm a firm believer that the blanket rules are suffocating and restrict your personal freedoms.

If the person if not mature enough at 17 to be treated as an adult then the education system and parents are failing their children in teaching them life skills and the right mindset to mature.

Labour are pushing for 16 year olds to be treated as adults and vote - is this a cynical ploy to harvest votes from impressionable and vulnerable children or them acknowledging that they should be treated as adults?

Iain said:

If the person if not mature enough at 17 to be treated as an adult then the education system and parents are failing their children in teaching them life skills and the right mindset to mature.

Nearly 50 years on  from  knowing I couldn't  cope with the non academic side of uni life I've got better, but still struggle with day to day practical things  that many others take in their stride. The educational system in the early 1960s to mid 1970s wasn't equipped to do the best for children and teenagers like me. Thankfully it's a lot better nowadays for such children and teenagers, though still far from perfect.

Even now much of the psychiatric system has a mindset that thinks if you can do x well , then automatically you can do y well. Failure to do so gets you branded as having a 'character defect'. You don't get much needed help and support, because it assumed, quite wrongly, that you don't need it.

It took till I was 60, thanks to intervention by my daughter, for long held false beliefs about me  to be demolished. Unfortunately its too late to fix the damage  that was caused.  For peace of mind I have to live with as things are, rather than how they should've been.

I'm not sure many here can understand a person like me. The vast majority of the population very probably doesn't.

firemonkey said:

The educational system in the early 1960s to mid 1970s wasn't equipped to do the best for children and teenagers like me. Thankfully it's a lot better nowadays for such children and teenagers, though still far from perfect.

I agree. The education system now is much more accommodating for those with different needs such as yourself.

With the 98% of the population who are not with our needs I feel that they are now being coddled and shielded too much so that when they come to leave school they are chewed up and spat out in the working world and lack the training to be able to adapt and cope.

I have an uncle who is a former headmaster (long serving) and he shares this view. He suggested that any training for pupils in "real world" skills would not be approved by a lot of parents in case it traumatised their kids.

I'm lucky in that I have scope to give this sort of education to a handful of autistic teens who are approaching school leaving age here and their parents want them to be prepared for the outside word. Here in Brazil there is way more prejudice against autism so I help the kids know what to expect, teach them some comeback lines to use (this needs a lot of repetition to make it always available), how to be assertive and how to know when to walk away amongst other things.

This is something I really wish I had growing up as it allows you to co-exist with neurotypicals and advocate for your needs. As you can imagine this is a stretch for teenagers but role playing this again and again until they can script it has proven very effective.

A lot depends on the level of capability of the person so the approach has to be tailored to each individual and I have the time to do this luckily.

OK.  So you clearly tried to post this, originally, 2 days ago.

I very strongly suspect that it was "caught and held, automatically" by the automated "spam-bot killer / needs-checking-by-a-human software" because it includes 3 links to other web sites.

What I mean by this is.....there are 3 separate areas of text in your post that, if you 'click' on those parts, you are taken to those websites from which you had copied the text.

This technique is used by commercial spam bots....so this is why you post was delayed.  Our volunteer moderators don't normally work at the weekends....hence the 2 day delay in your post appearing.

I hope this explanation helps reassure you that WHAT you wrote was fine.

Have a good Monday firemonkey.

Yours

Number.

No one. It was pointed out that it's a forum glitch ,and has happened to quite a lot of other posters.

Who or what accused you of spamming? Thats horrible, I think being falsly accused of wrong doing is a trigger for all of us, but some more so than others.

Yes!

Limited budget, probably.

Tried again . Accused of spamming again. From what I can make out, it's a longstanding problem. Which raises the question as to why the NAS  hasn't bothered to sort the problem out.

Trying again

I concur with Number. Anyone can get a post removed for spamming. It happened to me - I contested it and it was put back without explanation. Since then I found out that it's automatic and nothing to do with you. Over-sensitive computers. There are some triggers that people have pointed out - but I can't remember what they are.

Firemonkey, rest assured that the mechanics of this forum are truly rubbish.  Please do not assume that you have been targeted for anything in particular that you have written or done within one of your posts to result in it being "pulled" by the system.

About a year ago, I experimented with how/why posts get pulled by the system.  It is pretty laughable, and often has no relationship to what you have "said" in your post.  When I started to "unpick" and "report to all" about what I had discovered, I was asked NOT to report to the masses....which is not unreasonable.....because "publishing" such information would/could then allow the "nasty folk" to exploit the systems.

Please, just rest assured, that the system is simply rubbish - but probably well intentioned.

I tried replying to you but got accused of spamming. Apparently mentioning that I was mostly working in an industrial therapy unit during my last psych stay , and giving a Copilot description of such, is unacceptable. I now can find no way of challenging the decision. Being falsely accused of doing wrong is a major trigger for me due to an experience whilst at prep school.

I wasn't in psych hospital because of that. That was just one of the things they had me do while in there. Most of the time  they had me working in the industrial therapy unit.

Via Copilot

What a horrible experience for you and how stupid to put someone in an instistution for. My Mum would probably have been along side you, she can peel potatoes, but only with one sort of peeler, she cannot get her head around using a different type, it's like her eyes take in the information, but it doesn't get through to her brain and to her hands. I'm like that with tech.

TheCatWoman said:

I never want to see an adult, shaking, crying and having a near meltdown over cutting themselves a bit of French Stick ever again,

That's awful.Some step fathers can be total s**te* An experience I remember though it was over 40 years ago. Last and longest stay in psych hospital. Kicked off a cookery course for struggling to peel and cut potatoes. Accused  of being uncooperative and badly  behaved.  Not the only incidence of such.- genuinely struggling with things, but treated as though it was deliberate behaviour.

Neither person I was talking about were on the spectrum, it was pure choice and cultural expectations and was not aimed at you or anyone else with genuine difficulties. I knew my ex could do oven chips, because he did them fine when I wasn't there, it was my pressence that made him lose the ability to use the oven, put chips on an oven tray, even chose an oven tray and cook them for 20 mins. My friends problem was with her controlling husband refusing to allow her adult responsibilies even when she's cognitively fine and he was dying.

Personally I find it fairly easy to see when someones got genuine problems and when they're choosing to be useless. There are loads of things I cannot do and people get really frustrated and angry with me or laugh at me, my Mums a bit the same, there are things that I watch her try and do and find myself amazed at her approach. Some of them are a it funny though, like when I gave her some shower gel for her birthday, and she asked when did you put it on, before or after the soap? It never occured to her that it was an alternative to soap. I've also spent time with people undoing things they've been told they're bad at to the point where they have a near phobia about them. A uni friend who's mum remarried, to a man who always had unsliced bread, my friend had always grown up with sliced bread, her new step father got angry and humiliated her for not knowing how to cut bread. I never want to see an adult, shaking, crying and having a near meltdown over cutting themselves a bit of French Stick ever again, seeing her sense of achievement at this simple thing was a amazing.

ADAPTIVE FUNCTIONING difficulties    Common though not universal among those with ASD. Has nothing to do with being lazy or not wanting to 'grow up'. Judging by comments here  it's not something many here have experienced. If you're of average or below average intelligence with such a difficulty you're far  more likely to get help for it than if you're way over on the right side of the bell curve. If you're way over on the right side of the  bell curve you're treated as though you have a character defect. You're denied help to improve your adaptive functioning, because it's reckoned you can do it, but don't want to.

It took till I was 60, and my daughter countering  false and ignorant  beliefs  that had been allowed to become entrenched, for it to be realised it had feck all to do with having a character defect etc. That I do genuinely struggle with some things.

See:   https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs...62361321995620 , and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6519242/ 

I think there are some people who deliberately refuse to do certain bits of adulthood, like taking responsibility for household tasks, like cooking and cleaning and others who refuse to let others take any control at all. My ex husband had to be cajooled into doing household talks in the same way as my children did, if I was ill then he suddenly couldn't cook oven chips without my help. A friend, who's husband always took care of financial stuff, wouldn't even tell her things like who their electricity provider was in the few weeks before his death. Both my friend and thier children were begging him to let them know all the important household stuff. When he died his family were left both grieving and not knowing how to run the house, somethings they didn't know about until final notices came in. So my friend became an adult in her late 70's. My exhusband refused to grow up when there was a woman around.

I wonder if greater diagnosis of things like autism is always a good thing? It's great that people get the help they need at school and work, but are we in danger of always pushing the lowest common denominator at people in other areas, the so called life skills? Is being able to cook a simple meal from scratch with fresh ingredients a life skill, important for self worth, health and general living, or should we expect people to just eat pizza and burgers because they're easy? When is someone old enough to do their own washing and ironing? I taught my kids to do it when they were about 10, how to read laundry lables and what they meant, how to use a washing machine, how to iron a shirt. I taught them how to wire a plug, how use the right fuse in a plug, what you need in a basic tool kit. When we moved to the countryside, I let them roam a bit and learn to be independent.

If it had been known that I as autistic then, would I have been allowed or encouraged to teach my children all these things? As a child I had a door key on a piece of string around my neck, so as I could let myself in after school, I found I loved being alone in the house, learning to make choices about what I ate, what I did, what I watched on telly. In the school holidays I learned how to run a house, how to shop, to cook and manage a budget, how to use the laundrette. If i were a child now, would child protection have been called because at the age of 10, I was home alone for a couple of hours?

I think there are some people who deliberately refuse to do certain bits of adulthood, like taking responsibility for household tasks, like cooking and cleaning and others who refuse to let others take any control at all. My ex husband had to be cajooled into doing household talks in the same way as my children did, if I was ill then he suddenly couldn't cook oven chips without my help. A friend, who's husband always took care of financial stuff, wouldn't even tell her things like who their electricity provider was in the few weeks before his death. Both my friend and thier children were begging him to let them know all the important household stuff. When he died his family were left both grieving and not knowing how to run the house, somethings they didn't know about until final notices came in. So my friend became an adult in her late 70's. My exhusband refused to grow up when there was a woman around.

I wonder if greater diagnosis of things like autism is always a good thing? It's great that people get the help they need at school and work, but are we in danger of always pushing the lowest common denominator at people in other areas, the so called life skills? Is being able to cook a simple meal from scratch with fresh ingredients a life skill, important for self worth, health and general living, or should we expect people to just eat pizza and burgers because they're easy? When is someone old enough to do their own washing and ironing? I taught my kids to do it when they were about 10, how to read laundry lables and what they meant, how to use a washing machine, how to iron a shirt. I taught them how to wire a plug, how use the right fuse in a plug, what you need in a basic tool kit. When we moved to the countryside, I let them roam a bit and learn to be independent.

If it had been known that I as autistic then, would I have been allowed or encouraged to teach my children all these things? As a child I had a door key on a piece of string around my neck, so as I could let myself in after school, I found I loved being alone in the house, learning to make choices about what I ate, what I did, what I watched on telly. In the school holidays I learned how to run a house, how to shop, to cook and manage a budget, how to use the laundrette. If i were a child now, would child protection have been called because at the age of 10, I was home alone for a couple of hours?

OK.  So you clearly tried to post this, originally, 2 days ago.

I very strongly suspect that it was "caught and held, automatically" by the automated "spam-bot killer / needs-checking-by-a-human software" because it includes 3 links to other web sites.

What I mean by this is.....there are 3 separate areas of text in your post that, if you 'click' on those parts, you are taken to those websites from which you had copied the text.

This technique is used by commercial spam bots....so this is why you post was delayed.  Our volunteer moderators don't normally work at the weekends....hence the 2 day delay in your post appearing.

I hope this explanation helps reassure you that WHAT you wrote was fine.

Have a good Monday firemonkey.

Yours

Number.

No one. It was pointed out that it's a forum glitch ,and has happened to quite a lot of other posters.

Who or what accused you of spamming? Thats horrible, I think being falsly accused of wrong doing is a trigger for all of us, but some more so than others.

Yes!

Limited budget, probably.

Tried again . Accused of spamming again. From what I can make out, it's a longstanding problem. Which raises the question as to why the NAS  hasn't bothered to sort the problem out.

Trying again

I concur with Number. Anyone can get a post removed for spamming. It happened to me - I contested it and it was put back without explanation. Since then I found out that it's automatic and nothing to do with you. Over-sensitive computers. There are some triggers that people have pointed out - but I can't remember what they are.

Firemonkey, rest assured that the mechanics of this forum are truly rubbish.  Please do not assume that you have been targeted for anything in particular that you have written or done within one of your posts to result in it being "pulled" by the system.

About a year ago, I experimented with how/why posts get pulled by the system.  It is pretty laughable, and often has no relationship to what you have "said" in your post.  When I started to "unpick" and "report to all" about what I had discovered, I was asked NOT to report to the masses....which is not unreasonable.....because "publishing" such information would/could then allow the "nasty folk" to exploit the systems.

Please, just rest assured, that the system is simply rubbish - but probably well intentioned.

I tried replying to you but got accused of spamming. Apparently mentioning that I was mostly working in an industrial therapy unit during my last psych stay , and giving a Copilot description of such, is unacceptable. I now can find no way of challenging the decision. Being falsely accused of doing wrong is a major trigger for me due to an experience whilst at prep school.

I wasn't in psych hospital because of that. That was just one of the things they had me do while in there. Most of the time  they had me working in the industrial therapy unit.

Via Copilot

What a horrible experience for you and how stupid to put someone in an instistution for. My Mum would probably have been along side you, she can peel potatoes, but only with one sort of peeler, she cannot get her head around using a different type, it's like her eyes take in the information, but it doesn't get through to her brain and to her hands. I'm like that with tech.

TheCatWoman said:

I never want to see an adult, shaking, crying and having a near meltdown over cutting themselves a bit of French Stick ever again,

That's awful.Some step fathers can be total s**te* An experience I remember though it was over 40 years ago. Last and longest stay in psych hospital. Kicked off a cookery course for struggling to peel and cut potatoes. Accused  of being uncooperative and badly  behaved.  Not the only incidence of such.- genuinely struggling with things, but treated as though it was deliberate behaviour.

Neither person I was talking about were on the spectrum, it was pure choice and cultural expectations and was not aimed at you or anyone else with genuine difficulties. I knew my ex could do oven chips, because he did them fine when I wasn't there, it was my pressence that made him lose the ability to use the oven, put chips on an oven tray, even chose an oven tray and cook them for 20 mins. My friends problem was with her controlling husband refusing to allow her adult responsibilies even when she's cognitively fine and he was dying.

Personally I find it fairly easy to see when someones got genuine problems and when they're choosing to be useless. There are loads of things I cannot do and people get really frustrated and angry with me or laugh at me, my Mums a bit the same, there are things that I watch her try and do and find myself amazed at her approach. Some of them are a it funny though, like when I gave her some shower gel for her birthday, and she asked when did you put it on, before or after the soap? It never occured to her that it was an alternative to soap. I've also spent time with people undoing things they've been told they're bad at to the point where they have a near phobia about them. A uni friend who's mum remarried, to a man who always had unsliced bread, my friend had always grown up with sliced bread, her new step father got angry and humiliated her for not knowing how to cut bread. I never want to see an adult, shaking, crying and having a near meltdown over cutting themselves a bit of French Stick ever again, seeing her sense of achievement at this simple thing was a amazing.

ADAPTIVE FUNCTIONING difficulties    Common though not universal among those with ASD. Has nothing to do with being lazy or not wanting to 'grow up'. Judging by comments here  it's not something many here have experienced. If you're of average or below average intelligence with such a difficulty you're far  more likely to get help for it than if you're way over on the right side of the bell curve. If you're way over on the right side of the  bell curve you're treated as though you have a character defect. You're denied help to improve your adaptive functioning, because it's reckoned you can do it, but don't want to.

It took till I was 60, and my daughter countering  false and ignorant  beliefs  that had been allowed to become entrenched, for it to be realised it had feck all to do with having a character defect etc. That I do genuinely struggle with some things.

See:   https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs...62361321995620 , and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6519242/