Happy Autistic Pride Day!

I haven't commented up until now because I didn't want to get involved in the disagreements but I think there's a disconnect here in the way people are understanding 'pride'. Some people are using the 'active celebration of my actions' definition, and saying that it doesn't apply here so we shouldn't have Autistic Pride (or gay pride, or whatever else). But the thing is... of course that's not the definition of 'pride' that's in use here. When people talk about '[identity] Pride' they mean pride as in 'opposition to the shame others have made us feel about things that harm nobody and can't be changed'.

I'd like to think that pointing this out might change a few minds, but tbh after seeing the way discussions like this tend to go on this forum, I'm not especially hopeful 

The problem for me, in addition to what I see as a fundamental misapplication of the word, is that the use of 'pride' attached to identity can be very problematic. It is so very close to chauvinism, exclusivity and prejudice. People proud of being white have hanged black people from trees, people proud of their own version of religion have burned others at the stake, or blown them up. You might think that such identity pride is only dangerous in the hands of powerful groups, but this is not so, many marginalised groups have produced violent terrorists (see: Types of Minority Discrimination and Terrorism, JAMES A. PIAZZA, Conflict Management and Peace Science, Vol. 29, No. 5 (November 2012), pp. 521-546 (26 pages)
Published By: Sage Publications, Ltd). I am not saying that autistic terrorists are a likely, or even possible, development, but I wish to emphasise that 'pride of identity' has profoundly negative aspects.

Well I wouldn't worry about it Martin, an LGBTQ or Autistic person has never gone on a rampage to specifically target straight and allist people so it's a non-issue, not worth the fuss.
Anyway I have more important stuff to do and I'm going out soon so I'll leave it there.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

And since you changed it form being about personal achievement to chauvinism I get the impression no answer I give you will be good enough, and that you simply dislike minority groups having pride in their hard won rights.

That is not a logical deduction, I have not changed anything. I believe that pride should be restricted to achievement, either personal or collective and not identity, AND that 'pride of identity' can lead to chauvinism. The two beliefs are far from being mutually exclusive, indeed they are fully reconcilable concepts with each other. As for the second part of your sentence, you have mentioned an action, an achievement, and not a state of being, therefore, from all of my prior arguments, it should be obvious that I would be entirely happy to endorse any minority group expressing pride in having won rights.

Pride in having achieved something - good, entirely appropriate.

Pride in being something that is accidental or incidental - not so good, sometimes inappropriate, potentially dangerous when taken to extremes.

Martin said:

Ernst Röhm, was Hitler's right hand man and the leader of the Nazi 'Brown Shirts' also known as 'Stormtroopers'. Being gay did not prevent him from orchestrating nationwide acts of violence against Jews and others, including murder.

I'm literally stepping out the door RN so I'll keep it short. The problem with that analogy is that it (along with other issues with it https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/08/gay-nazi-myth-why-dinesh-dsouzas-misuse-of-history-is-so-galling.html ) is it is a false equivalence, and the "others" that got sent to the camps and chambers included LGBTQ folks.

Martin said:

I am just against the use of the word 'pride' in connection to just being something, rather than having achieved something.

Martin said:

what I see as a fundamental misapplication of the word, is that the use of 'pride' attached to identity can be very problematic. It is so very close to chauvinism,

And since you changed it form being about personal achievement to chauvinism I get the impression no answer I give you will be good enough, and that you simply dislike minority groups having pride in their hard won rights. If you don't like the word pride in that context then fine just don't use it yourself but you aren't going to succeed in policing how or why others do so.

Anyway I'm off, have a wonderful afternoon.

I was not saying that any group was predetermined to become violent, but that 'pride of identity' is not without problems, it has the potential to lead on to chauvinism, which is a prerequisite of violence against 'others'. No group is immune from producing violent and prejudiced people. Ernst Röhm, was Hitler's right hand man and the leader of the Nazi 'Brown Shirts' also known as 'Stormtroopers'. Being gay did not prevent him from orchestrating nationwide acts of violence against Jews and others, including murder.

I was not saying that any group was predetermined to become violent, but that 'pride of identity' is not without problems, it has the potential to lead on to chauvinism, which is a prerequisite of violence against 'others'. No group is immune from producing violent and prejudiced people. Ernst Röhm, was Hitler's right hand man and the leader of the Nazi 'Brown Shirts' also known as 'Stormtroopers'. Being gay did not prevent him from orchestrating nationwide acts of violence against Jews and others, including murder.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

And since you changed it form being about personal achievement to chauvinism I get the impression no answer I give you will be good enough, and that you simply dislike minority groups having pride in their hard won rights.

That is not a logical deduction, I have not changed anything. I believe that pride should be restricted to achievement, either personal or collective and not identity, AND that 'pride of identity' can lead to chauvinism. The two beliefs are far from being mutually exclusive, indeed they are fully reconcilable concepts with each other. As for the second part of your sentence, you have mentioned an action, an achievement, and not a state of being, therefore, from all of my prior arguments, it should be obvious that I would be entirely happy to endorse any minority group expressing pride in having won rights.

Pride in having achieved something - good, entirely appropriate.

Pride in being something that is accidental or incidental - not so good, sometimes inappropriate, potentially dangerous when taken to extremes.

Martin said:

Ernst Röhm, was Hitler's right hand man and the leader of the Nazi 'Brown Shirts' also known as 'Stormtroopers'. Being gay did not prevent him from orchestrating nationwide acts of violence against Jews and others, including murder.

I'm literally stepping out the door RN so I'll keep it short. The problem with that analogy is that it (along with other issues with it https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/08/gay-nazi-myth-why-dinesh-dsouzas-misuse-of-history-is-so-galling.html ) is it is a false equivalence, and the "others" that got sent to the camps and chambers included LGBTQ folks.

Martin said:

I am just against the use of the word 'pride' in connection to just being something, rather than having achieved something.

Martin said:

what I see as a fundamental misapplication of the word, is that the use of 'pride' attached to identity can be very problematic. It is so very close to chauvinism,

And since you changed it form being about personal achievement to chauvinism I get the impression no answer I give you will be good enough, and that you simply dislike minority groups having pride in their hard won rights. If you don't like the word pride in that context then fine just don't use it yourself but you aren't going to succeed in policing how or why others do so.

Anyway I'm off, have a wonderful afternoon.