What's gender?

People may find this article interesting. (https://inews.co.uk/news/non-binary-american-uk-stuck-legal-limbo-gender-2242643)

about 25% of the world now legally recognises some form of non binary gender. The uk does not. The person in question is legally recognised as non binary in the country of origin. They have applied to get their non binary gender recognised under uk law. In principle the body involved has agreed. The paper work has been issued. But even if they get that paperwork other government bodies like the passport office and the dvla are saying they might not go along with it.

that said with  so many people with an X on their passport coming to live in the uk the government may be forced to make some sort of rule to account for their status at some point. At which point pressure to extend that rule to UK citizens will inevitably be brought to bare.

thing with none binary is it gets misused...

a person cant say they are none binary... but then say they are trans man to woman or something... because that is still inside the binary they just changed from one to the other inside that binary.

to be none binary a person has to say they are neither a man nor a woman but something else outside of that entirely. that is true none binary. but most people using it still call themselves a man or a woman and are still inside the binary themselves. which harms its definition and power as a word.

edit: but then theyd have trouble defining what none binary is, what is outside man or woman, they dont know, they dont have a name for it, because its sorta made up... after thinking on it myself the only conclusion i came to is that theyd have to make it like a sexuality where from straight and gay they had to go in between to make asexual... therefore none binary is redundant, they have no name for any other gender...  the only thing they could really validly say is instead that they consider themselves Agendered....

Caelus said:

edit: but then theyd have trouble defining what none binary is, what is outside man or woman, they dont know, they dont have a name for it

But we do have a name for it. Historically it was hermaphroditism and in modern medicine you’d say intersex.

Peter said:

That's a bit wishy washy don't you think? Another non binary person can't look inside your head and see if your perception of your own neurology being non binary is the same as theirs? If gender is just a feeling how does anyone know their feelings are the same as anyone else's?

Not wishy washy at all. Your gender is your gender others don't have to understand everything about it to accept it.

Peter said:

To borrow a hyperboly from 4chan, if I feel like my gender is attack helicopter why isn't it?

You're asking the wrong question. If you feel your gender is  whatever then it is, but people who say they identify as an attack helicopter almost never mean it, it's just a dishonest misrepresentation to be petty to trans and NB people.

Peter said:

How can we put a number on your feeling of being non binary?

You can't, and the innability to measure it doesn't change the outcome, I still am , always was, and will always be, but people who are bothered by that should really be asking theselves why it bothers them.  In a world where there is no inherent meaning save what constructs society creates for itself depending on where you want to rip that structure apart the anarchy can either be terrifying or liberating.


It's odd and sad how that "'you can do what you like so long as it doesn't hurt any one,'" attitude was never really upheld even back then, and is markedly absent now , it is surface level patter and optics and no more than that. Because if you really feel "'you can do what you like so long as it doesn't hurt any one,'" then it shouldn't matter if my gender can be measured or not for you (the royal you if needs be) to accept it.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

Do you hang out with current LGBTQ groups btw? GNCs (gender non conforming folks) that are otherwise still cis or hetero but come in good faith are welcome in those spaces.

Not really. I find they are full of easily offended people and I'm good at inadvertently offending people. I've never really felt the need to advocate for LGBT rights ... I'm more into human rights. I just happen to recognise that LGBT individuals are humans who's often get a raw deal. I've generally found the anime community to be more accepting. Even back in the so called 'toxic' days of the 00s where people really didn't give 2 hoots about politically correct language if you wanted to run around crossdressing or hooking up with the same sex no one really cared in the anime community. There was a trans man in our anime society for years and I never knew. He had a gender neutral name looked like a tomboyish girl and never made a fuss about his pronouns. I had assumed he was a girl for years till some one mentioned it to me.

No one made a fuss 'you can do what you like so long as it doesn't hurt any one,' was the prevailing attitude.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

Indeed that is why I mentioned your identity is based on"gonadal sex" (I made a whole glossary earlier if you want to check it out). I don't know if this is gettng missed in the discussion but I'm actually affirming your own gender and it's basis, that is what it means t be cis and evidently it is right for you. That just doesn't mean it's right for everyone else. I'll explain why at the end.

I mean gonadal sex isn't a very good term. Women with CAIS have testicals but are generally considered cis women.

When I talk about a spectrum I guess I'm really taking about a high dimensional space of independent traits. Like a list of numbers. like say the list from before in my first post. (I'll copy paste)

1. having at least one testical 
2. having at least one overy 
3. having a uterus 
4. having secondary male sex characteristic
5. having secondary female sex characteristics
6. having spent some time being raised as a girl
7. having spent some time being raised as a man
8. sometimes using male pronouns 
9. sometimes using female pronouns 
10. having a Y chromosome 

Now consider where a typical woman with CAIS would sit on that spectrum if we assign each property to a binary number. She's probably be 1000110011. That would be her position in the spectrum. Now consider a boy raised as a girl castrated before puberty who goes by they. They would probably be 0000010001. Then consider a chimera hermaphrodite their number might be 1111111111. You can come up with lots of systems for sorting this 'spectrum' into categories just as we sort wavelengths of light into colours like red and blue. All I'm saying by referring to spectrums and multiple genders is you need at least 3 to capture the sense of 'male' and 'female' in typical english and for functional reasons more than 3 might be needed in practice.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

I don't disagree with your 2nd to last paragraph above the quoted one, but as a NB gender person I can say that tieing identiy to transition or wanting to transition is false, I don't always want my body to be different, actually I'm most days pretty comfy, and that is because my gender is not tied to the acceptance or rejection of my body or gonadal sex, you can say it's in my neurology or in my soul, but I would still be nonbinary no matter what my body looked or acted like.

That's a bit wishy washy don't you think? Another non binary person can't look inside your head and see if your perception of your own neurology being non binary is the same as theirs? If gender is just a feeling how does anyone know their feelings are the same as anyone else's? To borrow a hyperboly from 4chan, if I feel like my gender is attack helicopter why isn't it? Surely there needs to be an external reference point. Let me put it another way. You've heard of other kin? People who believe they are the reincarnated souls of non humans, often fictional characters. What does it mean to believe you are the reincarnation of the fictional sherlock holmes? How is that a cultural / group identity if it exists only in your head? The body and the changes we can make to it or aspire to make for it are quantifiable. We can put numbers on the size of genitals, hormone levels, sequences of DNA. How can we put a number on your feeling of being non binary?

Peter & Bees

Thank you for reminding me what a calm, cordial, and reasoned discussion looks like in this place.

It sustains my faith that there is always hope.....and this is how I learn stuff - so thank you for that to.

Number.

Peter said:

as I’ve said my own view of gender is that it is a spectrum not a binary. But you’re right while some people might include performative elements (like who wears the trousers) for me personally I wouldn’t. I tend to think of it more in terms of what body parts does some one have / want to have.

Indeed that is why I mentioned your identity is based on"gonadal sex" (I made a whole glossary earlier if you want to check it out). I don't know if this is gettng missed in the discussion but I'm actually affirming your own gender and it's basis, that is what it means t be cis and evidently it is right for you. That just doesn't mean it's right for everyone else. I'll explain why at the end.

Peter said:

and it was more of an aside anyway. The point I was making is gender is a spectrum but if you try to categorise it there must be at least 3 genders.

It's funny because I don't think we disagree per se', but the minutia of the points we have to make appears to differ, but yes a spectrum absolutely. But if you(people in general) "boil it down" I can see why you might say 3 eg female, male, and neither of the other two. But surely that's a trinary not a spectrum and others less intellectualy open to such concepts as a spectrum would ignore the "at least " part, which is pretty much where we are at in terms of more rudimentary scientiffic understanding with gonadal sex currently.

Peter said:

yes that’s probably the most functional useful way to think about gender. Gender as the way we want our bodies to be as compared to how they actually are as compared to how they are perceived by ourselves and others.

I don't disagree with your 2nd to last paragraph above the quoted one, but as a NB gender person I can say that tieing identiy to transition or wanting to transition is false, I don't always want my body to be different, actually I'm most days pretty comfy, and that is because my gender is not tied to the acceptance or rejection of my body or gonadal sex, you can say it's in my neurology or in my soul, but I would still be nonbinary no matter what my body looked or acted like. That's what my identity is to me. I am nonbinary because I know I am, I've known since day one way back in the 80s.

Peter said:

it would be nice if we lived in a world where delicate guys could be treated like princesses and wooed by doting strong women and bought drinks in bars. Or where women could spend their days lifting weights and join the SAS. Alas society is not that flexible.

but for me when I think of gender identity I’m thinking, ok if I was the only one left in the world what would I want to see when I looked in the mirror.

The difference between physical and social dysphoria is fascinating, and I think it's worth anyone questioning their gender asking themselves those questions: How would I want my body (and presentation) to be if I was the only person in the world? How important would it be to me? What is the most comfortable way for my body to be and for me to present / label myself in our current society?

From speaking to trans/non-binary people I think most have some combination of both physical and social dysphoria. You could say physical dysphoria is more fundamental, but given that we live in a society and that's unlikely to change any time soon, I think both are valid reasons for transition and self-identification as trans or non-binary.

Peter said:

I think some (not all) intersex people would strongly disagree with you.

That's for them to correct me though, though what you said goes against what intersex folks tell me themselves in LGBTQ groups anyway. Though as you say "some not all", even with other groups it's not wise to treat the word of the individual alone as a kind of gospel. That doesn't mean it can just be dismissed, but accepted with a pinch of salt. Do you hang out with current LGBTQ groups btw? GNCs (gender non conforming folks) that are otherwise still cis or hetero but come in good faith are welcome in those spaces.

Peter said:

My source is a number of blogs by trans women  I was following around 15+ years ago. I never said it was a majority. We’re talking about trans people so any subsection is going to be a tiny minority of the population as a whole.

As long as the informationand source is clear I have no issue with that.

Peter said:

you can learn far more looking at hero's, terrorists, serial killers and saints than you can looking at joe blogs on his way to work.

I appreciate why you would say that, they are after all statistical outliers, and anomalys.

Respectfully I have to disagree for myself though. I always found the outliers of society get studied because they are outliers, not many people have thought to study the masses en-masse. If you'll forgive the metaphor: In terms of social studies the lack of research into the "general" population is a bit like humans looking for water in other parts of the solar system while %80 of our own oceans on earth are still uncharted. So personally I am more interested in discovering what can be learned from the largely un-studied.

My source is a number of blogs by trans women  I was following around 15+ years ago. I never said it was a majority. We’re talking about trans people so any subsection is going to be a tiny minority of the population as a whole.

but then I'm rarely interested in the majority. In science it’s the extreme cases that are often most informative. In biology we learn a lot about the functioning of the body through the extreme symptoms of diseases. In physics we need the extreme energies of particle accelerators to probe quantum theory. I take the same approach with human beings.

you can learn far more looking at hero's, terrorists, serial killers and saints than you can looking at joe blogs on his way to work.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

Intersex isn't a gender though

I think some (not all) intersex people would strongly disagree with you.

as I’ve said my own view of gender is that it is a spectrum not a binary. But you’re right while some people might include performative elements (like who wears the trousers) for me personally I wouldn’t. I tend to think of it more in terms of what body parts does some one have / want to have.

it would be nice if we lived in a world where delicate guys could be treated like princesses and wooed by doting strong women and bought drinks in bars. Or where women could spend their days lifting weights and join the SAS. Alas society is not that flexible.

but for me when I think of gender identity I’m thinking, ok if I was the only one left in the world what would I want to see when I looked in the mirror.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

Actually the population percentage is about the same at all points in history, it's just visibility

Ok in this context when I’m talking about young trans people I mean young trans people who’ve medically transitioned. The kind of people who went through tavistock or who had rich parents that sent them overseas for treatment. That only really became a thing around the 00s. (As I understand it)

and it was more of an aside anyway. The point I was making is gender is a spectrum but if you try to categorise it there must be at least 3 genders. And actually probably more. Because In a very real way there are important functional differences between trans people.

we already recognise these distinctions in crude forms in our language. We talk about pre and post op trans people for example. But I was pointing out even trans people sometimes think of their gender identity as being different from other trans peoples. That maybe 3 gender categories, male / female / other, is still too crude for the spectrum.

Not all self identifying cis women can be treated as women for medical purposes. Some have an intersex condition like complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. Some trans women can sun bathe nude on the beach and no one would know they were trans. Some couldn’t but in a bar or on the street they pass 100%. Some trans women couldn’t pass face to face ever. Some trans people can pass for either gender with some effort. Some don’t want to pass for either gender or want to pass for both genders at different times. And then the same trend continues with the trans men on the other side of the spectrum. All of these relate to how they want themselves and others to perceive  their bodies and how they and others actually do perceive their bodies and all could arguably be called a kind of gender.

yes that’s probably the most functional useful way to think about gender. Gender as the way we want our bodies to be as compared to how they actually are as compared to how they are perceived by ourselves and others.

Peter said:

But some self identifying trans people clearly aren’t trans. And yes it’s probably a tiny number but, for example, the case of a prisoner declaring they are trans because they think Women’s  prisons are softer, would be an example.

Actually while not all self identifying trans people are trans, all trans people are self identifying, they have to be by nature of how gender identity works. Unfortunately what you allude to as the "fake trans" is a criminal element, but they are seldom known for their honesty anyway, I'm sure they'd tell you they were a crocodile too if they thought there were a few bob in it.

Peter said:

I personally think if you define non binary narrowly to mean ‘trans intersex’ then a lot of self identified non binary people are clearly not ‘trans intersex.’

Intersex isn't a gender though so transintersex literally doesn't exist, to effectively become intersex might be some nonbinary folks ideal form of transition, but it isn't always and that doesn't make them less nonbinary because NB is a gender (not sex) identity (a feeling not based on anything physical).

Peter said:

And simply saying ‘I don’t conform to gender roles.’ Is not a gender identity. By that definition I’m non binary.

Now that is interesting, now you have said that I know you must view your own gender in terms of identity and not performativity then, because performative gender is  the root of where sayings like "you can see who wears the trousers in that house" come from, and if gender was only viewed under a performative lens then you would be non-binary. But by saying you aren't nonbinary just because you don't conform to gender roles (social norms) your sense of gender must be identative, even if (presumably, because by your own words you are not trans) exactly what that gender is based on is just perceived gonadal sex.

"now this point of view is dated, probably from around the late 00s where the number of young trans people was much much smaller. Maybe the community has totally changed since then."

Actually the population percentage is about the same at all points in history, it's just visibility that goes up or down depending on how safe to leave the closet trans people feel in a particular country at a particular point in history. Trans acceptance wouldn't actually make any more trans people than there already are, just more that were previously uncounted would become known to statistal data. For example the population of lefthanded people appeared to rise after lefthanded acceptance became more wide spread as less people hid their being left handed, but after a certain point in time the number plateaued and then just kept at a steady ratio with the rest of the population, revealing the true number of lefhanded folks that had been there all along. The same is happening in more recent years with LGBT people.
There's actually a graph that shows this:
https://slowrevealgraphs.com/2021/11/08/rate-of-left-handedness-in-the-us-stigma-society/

HP35 said:

there are (sexual/reproductive) parts of my body I don't want to have, but I don't particularly want the opposite set either."

Which sits pretty comfortably inside my understanding of what non binary should be. … or it could be both. As in “I want body parts from both sexs”

I think you’re wrong to think of it as gatekeeping. I think the point is the young trans women I was thinking of are actually embarrassed by the label trans because they don’t really think of themselves as trans women anyway, just women. So they don’t really want to be members of the ‘trans club.’ It’s not about them wanting to gate keep non passing trans people out of the ‘trans club’ (I know it’s not a great term but I’m struggling for something better). It’s more that they think they are entitled to not be gate kept out of things because society reacts badly to non passing trans women.

it’s like they’re saying ‘please don’t lump us in with them, don’t kick us out just because they make you uncomfortable’

now this point of view is dated, probably from around the late 00s where the number of young trans people was much much smaller. Maybe the community has totally changed since then.

but I can understand how someone could feel that way. If you see a burly trans woman with 5 o clock shadow and a square jaw walk into the changing room at Ann Summers and the women there have a fit I could understand how a passing transwoman in that same changing room might be thinking ‘please don’t ruin this for me.’

I've certainly met young trans women at pride events and so on who I didn't realise were trans until they started talking about their surgeries, marching alongside older people who don't pass. The kind of gatekeeping you describe simply isn't acceptable in any queer spaces I've been in.

Personally when I say I'm non binary I mean it as in "there are (sexual/reproductive) parts of my body I don't want to have, but I don't particularly want the opposite set either." Whether or not I end up actually getting those parts removed, rather than simply hiding them under clothing and using medications to shut down their functioning, is something I'm not decided on, given the difficulty of access and the risks and sensory overload involved in surgery and recovery. When I first started reaching out to the trans community I worried about not being "trans enough" but I've had nothing but acceptance.

But some self identifying trans people clearly aren’t trans. And yes it’s probably a tiny number but, for example, the case of a prisoner declaring they are trans because they think Women’s  prisons are softer, would be an example.

I personally think if you define non binary narrowly to mean ‘trans intersex’ then a lot of self identified non binary people are clearly not ‘trans intersex.’ And simply saying ‘I don’t conform to gender roles.’ Is not a gender identity. By that definition I’m non binary.

but that’s not what I was talking about regarding young transitioners.

I’m only going on what I’ve been told but as I understand it a lot of young transitions, people who probably got booked in for SRS on the 18th birthday kind of thing, go close to 100% ‘stealth’ and tell almost no one they know they are trans. The only people who know are often other young trans people.

im told, now this is just what I’ve been told, that they often find older transitioners, specifically older trans women, intimidating, because to them they look like ‘men in dresses.’ (A term I have read them using) As I say these trans people you are probably not going to find advertising themselves as trans or attending trans rights groups. If they are in some LGBT group they probably just call themselves lesbians.

maybe it’s a different kettle of fish with trans men because the cosmetic results are much better post puberty. But for trans women there can be a bit of a divide between those who transitioned pre 20 and post 20.

Peter said:

the younge transitioners are more like ‘just let us have the drugs and gender identity politics can go hang. We like our new gender role and you will never know the difference.’

Peter said:

They don’t worry about being challenged using a toilet or changing room, don’t worry when they go out dating. Some of their friends maybe even some of their lovers don’t know they are trans.

No that was a very tiny minority within a minority of now older folks who very specifically could afford to transition and if they could pass would never leave the closet for fear of being murdered under the "but I'm not gay!""defence". The reality is most are unable to access means to transition in the first place. And yet despite transmedicalist barriers they remain transgender.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/02/us/02murder.html

It's terrifying how often people who are neither in the community nor have actually studied the biological or social sciences will wade in to give "knowledge" on a whole group of people they've no connection to based purely on their reactionary feelings without so much as a verified source to back up what they say.

I see what you mean. If I could access T I might put less effort into presenting masc.

I've never, ever seen a younger person invalidate an older trans person for not passing though. The opposite is far more likely. As evidenced by your post - a trans person in their 20s would never say something so transmedicalist as "some non binary people don't deserve the term." Groups run by this demographic explicitly have codes of conduct saying that attitude is not acceptable.

Actually it’s more the issue that puberty blockers don’t put growth hormones on hold. And you need the growth hormones and sex hormones to be synced to get the full puberty effect. The delayed puberty is therefore blunted some what.

trans girls who take oestrogen in their 30s grow smaller breasts compared to female relatives for example. You need high oestrogen and high growth hormone to optimally grow breasts.

and trans hrt protocols don’t generally include toping up hGH to puberty levels.

but doesnt that cause issues though? ... it has to take place while your body is growing and developing, you cant just pause it, wait, and restart it.... because when you restart it your body may have gone past its growth phase and thus the whole point of puberty and it effecting your growth is gone, and with it blocked likely youd get disabilities and issues from blocking it and interfering either way with your bodys growth phase. so a doing nothing or taking a hormone replacement would even be better and safer than a puberty blocker. but puberty blocker id guess would hinder your growth phase and cause defects and disability.

This is why they use puberty blockers. It pauses the physical changes that come with puberty and gives them to consider whether it's what they really want.  Then, when they are sure they can make use of whichever hormones they need to guide their body to the comfortable shape.

But doesn’t that fit with the completeness of the transition. The more you look like the transition gender the less you feel you need to perform as that gender. The non binary people I’m slightly unsure deserve that term are largely those who have not modified their bodies and have no plans to. Some of them it might just be technical issues or concerns about complications but the rest it seems it’s not really about the way they feel about their bodies at all. It’s about gender roles and tbh gender roles are a very different thing than gender.

The more male you look as a trans man maybe the less fussed you are about acting manly. 

As a non binary person whose friendship group is mostly made up of trans and enby people of a wide range of ages, I have the opposite experience. Younger people seem far more likely to play around with gender and flaunt stereotypes. E.g. I have a much younger friend (he/they) who has transitioned with testosterone/surgery and now looks male but presents very femme in terms of clothing, makeup, nails, jewelry etc, which I find fascinating and joyful. Older trans people seem more likely to stick with one set of binary pronouns and present more conservatively within their gender identity.

As a non binary person whose friendship group is mostly made up of trans and enby people of a wide range of ages, I have the opposite experience. Younger people seem far more likely to play around with gender and flaunt stereotypes. E.g. I have a much younger friend (he/they) who has transitioned with testosterone/surgery and now looks male but presents very femme in terms of clothing, makeup, nails, jewelry etc, which I find fascinating and joyful. Older trans people seem more likely to stick with one set of binary pronouns and present more conservatively within their gender identity.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

Indeed that is why I mentioned your identity is based on"gonadal sex" (I made a whole glossary earlier if you want to check it out). I don't know if this is gettng missed in the discussion but I'm actually affirming your own gender and it's basis, that is what it means t be cis and evidently it is right for you. That just doesn't mean it's right for everyone else. I'll explain why at the end.

I mean gonadal sex isn't a very good term. Women with CAIS have testicals but are generally considered cis women.

When I talk about a spectrum I guess I'm really taking about a high dimensional space of independent traits. Like a list of numbers. like say the list from before in my first post. (I'll copy paste)

1. having at least one testical 
2. having at least one overy 
3. having a uterus 
4. having secondary male sex characteristic
5. having secondary female sex characteristics
6. having spent some time being raised as a girl
7. having spent some time being raised as a man
8. sometimes using male pronouns 
9. sometimes using female pronouns 
10. having a Y chromosome 

Now consider where a typical woman with CAIS would sit on that spectrum if we assign each property to a binary number. She's probably be 1000110011. That would be her position in the spectrum. Now consider a boy raised as a girl castrated before puberty who goes by they. They would probably be 0000010001. Then consider a chimera hermaphrodite their number might be 1111111111. You can come up with lots of systems for sorting this 'spectrum' into categories just as we sort wavelengths of light into colours like red and blue. All I'm saying by referring to spectrums and multiple genders is you need at least 3 to capture the sense of 'male' and 'female' in typical english and for functional reasons more than 3 might be needed in practice.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

I don't disagree with your 2nd to last paragraph above the quoted one, but as a NB gender person I can say that tieing identiy to transition or wanting to transition is false, I don't always want my body to be different, actually I'm most days pretty comfy, and that is because my gender is not tied to the acceptance or rejection of my body or gonadal sex, you can say it's in my neurology or in my soul, but I would still be nonbinary no matter what my body looked or acted like.

That's a bit wishy washy don't you think? Another non binary person can't look inside your head and see if your perception of your own neurology being non binary is the same as theirs? If gender is just a feeling how does anyone know their feelings are the same as anyone else's? To borrow a hyperboly from 4chan, if I feel like my gender is attack helicopter why isn't it? Surely there needs to be an external reference point. Let me put it another way. You've heard of other kin? People who believe they are the reincarnated souls of non humans, often fictional characters. What does it mean to believe you are the reincarnation of the fictional sherlock holmes? How is that a cultural / group identity if it exists only in your head? The body and the changes we can make to it or aspire to make for it are quantifiable. We can put numbers on the size of genitals, hormone levels, sequences of DNA. How can we put a number on your feeling of being non binary?

Peter & Bees

Thank you for reminding me what a calm, cordial, and reasoned discussion looks like in this place.

It sustains my faith that there is always hope.....and this is how I learn stuff - so thank you for that to.

Number.

Peter said:

as I’ve said my own view of gender is that it is a spectrum not a binary. But you’re right while some people might include performative elements (like who wears the trousers) for me personally I wouldn’t. I tend to think of it more in terms of what body parts does some one have / want to have.

Indeed that is why I mentioned your identity is based on"gonadal sex" (I made a whole glossary earlier if you want to check it out). I don't know if this is gettng missed in the discussion but I'm actually affirming your own gender and it's basis, that is what it means t be cis and evidently it is right for you. That just doesn't mean it's right for everyone else. I'll explain why at the end.

Peter said:

and it was more of an aside anyway. The point I was making is gender is a spectrum but if you try to categorise it there must be at least 3 genders.

It's funny because I don't think we disagree per se', but the minutia of the points we have to make appears to differ, but yes a spectrum absolutely. But if you(people in general) "boil it down" I can see why you might say 3 eg female, male, and neither of the other two. But surely that's a trinary not a spectrum and others less intellectualy open to such concepts as a spectrum would ignore the "at least " part, which is pretty much where we are at in terms of more rudimentary scientiffic understanding with gonadal sex currently.

Peter said:

yes that’s probably the most functional useful way to think about gender. Gender as the way we want our bodies to be as compared to how they actually are as compared to how they are perceived by ourselves and others.

I don't disagree with your 2nd to last paragraph above the quoted one, but as a NB gender person I can say that tieing identiy to transition or wanting to transition is false, I don't always want my body to be different, actually I'm most days pretty comfy, and that is because my gender is not tied to the acceptance or rejection of my body or gonadal sex, you can say it's in my neurology or in my soul, but I would still be nonbinary no matter what my body looked or acted like. That's what my identity is to me. I am nonbinary because I know I am, I've known since day one way back in the 80s.

Peter said:

it would be nice if we lived in a world where delicate guys could be treated like princesses and wooed by doting strong women and bought drinks in bars. Or where women could spend their days lifting weights and join the SAS. Alas society is not that flexible.

but for me when I think of gender identity I’m thinking, ok if I was the only one left in the world what would I want to see when I looked in the mirror.

The difference between physical and social dysphoria is fascinating, and I think it's worth anyone questioning their gender asking themselves those questions: How would I want my body (and presentation) to be if I was the only person in the world? How important would it be to me? What is the most comfortable way for my body to be and for me to present / label myself in our current society?

From speaking to trans/non-binary people I think most have some combination of both physical and social dysphoria. You could say physical dysphoria is more fundamental, but given that we live in a society and that's unlikely to change any time soon, I think both are valid reasons for transition and self-identification as trans or non-binary.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

Intersex isn't a gender though

I think some (not all) intersex people would strongly disagree with you.

as I’ve said my own view of gender is that it is a spectrum not a binary. But you’re right while some people might include performative elements (like who wears the trousers) for me personally I wouldn’t. I tend to think of it more in terms of what body parts does some one have / want to have.

it would be nice if we lived in a world where delicate guys could be treated like princesses and wooed by doting strong women and bought drinks in bars. Or where women could spend their days lifting weights and join the SAS. Alas society is not that flexible.

but for me when I think of gender identity I’m thinking, ok if I was the only one left in the world what would I want to see when I looked in the mirror.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

Actually the population percentage is about the same at all points in history, it's just visibility

Ok in this context when I’m talking about young trans people I mean young trans people who’ve medically transitioned. The kind of people who went through tavistock or who had rich parents that sent them overseas for treatment. That only really became a thing around the 00s. (As I understand it)

and it was more of an aside anyway. The point I was making is gender is a spectrum but if you try to categorise it there must be at least 3 genders. And actually probably more. Because In a very real way there are important functional differences between trans people.

we already recognise these distinctions in crude forms in our language. We talk about pre and post op trans people for example. But I was pointing out even trans people sometimes think of their gender identity as being different from other trans peoples. That maybe 3 gender categories, male / female / other, is still too crude for the spectrum.

Not all self identifying cis women can be treated as women for medical purposes. Some have an intersex condition like complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. Some trans women can sun bathe nude on the beach and no one would know they were trans. Some couldn’t but in a bar or on the street they pass 100%. Some trans women couldn’t pass face to face ever. Some trans people can pass for either gender with some effort. Some don’t want to pass for either gender or want to pass for both genders at different times. And then the same trend continues with the trans men on the other side of the spectrum. All of these relate to how they want themselves and others to perceive  their bodies and how they and others actually do perceive their bodies and all could arguably be called a kind of gender.

yes that’s probably the most functional useful way to think about gender. Gender as the way we want our bodies to be as compared to how they actually are as compared to how they are perceived by ourselves and others.

Peter said:

But some self identifying trans people clearly aren’t trans. And yes it’s probably a tiny number but, for example, the case of a prisoner declaring they are trans because they think Women’s  prisons are softer, would be an example.

Actually while not all self identifying trans people are trans, all trans people are self identifying, they have to be by nature of how gender identity works. Unfortunately what you allude to as the "fake trans" is a criminal element, but they are seldom known for their honesty anyway, I'm sure they'd tell you they were a crocodile too if they thought there were a few bob in it.

Peter said:

I personally think if you define non binary narrowly to mean ‘trans intersex’ then a lot of self identified non binary people are clearly not ‘trans intersex.’

Intersex isn't a gender though so transintersex literally doesn't exist, to effectively become intersex might be some nonbinary folks ideal form of transition, but it isn't always and that doesn't make them less nonbinary because NB is a gender (not sex) identity (a feeling not based on anything physical).

Peter said:

And simply saying ‘I don’t conform to gender roles.’ Is not a gender identity. By that definition I’m non binary.

Now that is interesting, now you have said that I know you must view your own gender in terms of identity and not performativity then, because performative gender is  the root of where sayings like "you can see who wears the trousers in that house" come from, and if gender was only viewed under a performative lens then you would be non-binary. But by saying you aren't nonbinary just because you don't conform to gender roles (social norms) your sense of gender must be identative, even if (presumably, because by your own words you are not trans) exactly what that gender is based on is just perceived gonadal sex.

"now this point of view is dated, probably from around the late 00s where the number of young trans people was much much smaller. Maybe the community has totally changed since then."

Actually the population percentage is about the same at all points in history, it's just visibility that goes up or down depending on how safe to leave the closet trans people feel in a particular country at a particular point in history. Trans acceptance wouldn't actually make any more trans people than there already are, just more that were previously uncounted would become known to statistal data. For example the population of lefthanded people appeared to rise after lefthanded acceptance became more wide spread as less people hid their being left handed, but after a certain point in time the number plateaued and then just kept at a steady ratio with the rest of the population, revealing the true number of lefhanded folks that had been there all along. The same is happening in more recent years with LGBT people.
There's actually a graph that shows this:
https://slowrevealgraphs.com/2021/11/08/rate-of-left-handedness-in-the-us-stigma-society/

HP35 said:

there are (sexual/reproductive) parts of my body I don't want to have, but I don't particularly want the opposite set either."

Which sits pretty comfortably inside my understanding of what non binary should be. … or it could be both. As in “I want body parts from both sexs”

I think you’re wrong to think of it as gatekeeping. I think the point is the young trans women I was thinking of are actually embarrassed by the label trans because they don’t really think of themselves as trans women anyway, just women. So they don’t really want to be members of the ‘trans club.’ It’s not about them wanting to gate keep non passing trans people out of the ‘trans club’ (I know it’s not a great term but I’m struggling for something better). It’s more that they think they are entitled to not be gate kept out of things because society reacts badly to non passing trans women.

it’s like they’re saying ‘please don’t lump us in with them, don’t kick us out just because they make you uncomfortable’

now this point of view is dated, probably from around the late 00s where the number of young trans people was much much smaller. Maybe the community has totally changed since then.

but I can understand how someone could feel that way. If you see a burly trans woman with 5 o clock shadow and a square jaw walk into the changing room at Ann Summers and the women there have a fit I could understand how a passing transwoman in that same changing room might be thinking ‘please don’t ruin this for me.’

I've certainly met young trans women at pride events and so on who I didn't realise were trans until they started talking about their surgeries, marching alongside older people who don't pass. The kind of gatekeeping you describe simply isn't acceptable in any queer spaces I've been in.

Personally when I say I'm non binary I mean it as in "there are (sexual/reproductive) parts of my body I don't want to have, but I don't particularly want the opposite set either." Whether or not I end up actually getting those parts removed, rather than simply hiding them under clothing and using medications to shut down their functioning, is something I'm not decided on, given the difficulty of access and the risks and sensory overload involved in surgery and recovery. When I first started reaching out to the trans community I worried about not being "trans enough" but I've had nothing but acceptance.

But some self identifying trans people clearly aren’t trans. And yes it’s probably a tiny number but, for example, the case of a prisoner declaring they are trans because they think Women’s  prisons are softer, would be an example.

I personally think if you define non binary narrowly to mean ‘trans intersex’ then a lot of self identified non binary people are clearly not ‘trans intersex.’ And simply saying ‘I don’t conform to gender roles.’ Is not a gender identity. By that definition I’m non binary.

but that’s not what I was talking about regarding young transitioners.

I’m only going on what I’ve been told but as I understand it a lot of young transitions, people who probably got booked in for SRS on the 18th birthday kind of thing, go close to 100% ‘stealth’ and tell almost no one they know they are trans. The only people who know are often other young trans people.

im told, now this is just what I’ve been told, that they often find older transitioners, specifically older trans women, intimidating, because to them they look like ‘men in dresses.’ (A term I have read them using) As I say these trans people you are probably not going to find advertising themselves as trans or attending trans rights groups. If they are in some LGBT group they probably just call themselves lesbians.

maybe it’s a different kettle of fish with trans men because the cosmetic results are much better post puberty. But for trans women there can be a bit of a divide between those who transitioned pre 20 and post 20.

I see what you mean. If I could access T I might put less effort into presenting masc.

I've never, ever seen a younger person invalidate an older trans person for not passing though. The opposite is far more likely. As evidenced by your post - a trans person in their 20s would never say something so transmedicalist as "some non binary people don't deserve the term." Groups run by this demographic explicitly have codes of conduct saying that attitude is not acceptable.

But doesn’t that fit with the completeness of the transition. The more you look like the transition gender the less you feel you need to perform as that gender. The non binary people I’m slightly unsure deserve that term are largely those who have not modified their bodies and have no plans to. Some of them it might just be technical issues or concerns about complications but the rest it seems it’s not really about the way they feel about their bodies at all. It’s about gender roles and tbh gender roles are a very different thing than gender.

The more male you look as a trans man maybe the less fussed you are about acting manly.