That's the problem. They don't meet the criteria - the descriptors used by the WCA, which I presume the tribunal will also use to judge eligibility. Those descriptors are terrible and certainly don't really help my case. So i haven't got a chance and I suspect only very severely affected neurodiverse people will be affected (how such people would cope with a tribunal is another matter entirely).wishface said:[quote][/quote]
If your difficulties do not meet the eligibility crieria, then you, most probably, will not win the appeal.
Don't worry about what diagnosis you may, or may not, have, it is not relevant, it just makes explaining the difficulties easier.
It all comes down to interpretation, wishface.
The DWP, when they look at the WCA report err on the side of interpretting the criteria in a way that reduces the numbers of people getting the benefit.
The appeal hearing however is not done by the DWP it is done by an entirely independent appeal hearing organisation and they tend to intrepret the criteria in a much fairer way that favours the applicant a lot more.
If you like, they, at the appeal hearing, look more at the spirit of the law, not the letter of it.
And let me repeat, and emphasise, what I've said numerous times already:
I am not a "very severely affected neurodiverse" person. Most people wouldn't have a clue I have Asperger's unless I told them. And yet, I won my Appeal.
And I'm not unique. I don't have the exact figures, but, again, as I've already stated multiple times, a very high proportion of people with AS/ASDs that go through the ESA caim process fail the WCA but win the appeal. Precisely because the WCA is weighted against us, but the appeal is not.
That's the problem. They don't meet the criteria - the descriptors used by the WCA, which I presume the tribunal will also use to judge eligibility. Those descriptors are terrible and certainly don't really help my case. So i haven't got a chance and I suspect only very severely affected neurodiverse people will be affected (how such people would cope with a tribunal is another matter entirely).Scorpion0x17 said:If your difficulties do not meet the eligibility crieria, then you, most probably, will not win the appeal.
Don't worry about what diagnosis you may, or may not, have, it is not relevant, it just makes explaining the difficulties easier.
wishface said:i just cannot believe that they, beyond anyone else, will agree that I have such a condition without one. Otherwise you'd have a lot more people than even are being passed already getting through surely. If regular doctors are reluctant to believe the possibility of these kinds of condition, why would a tribunal doctor and a judge be any different?
The point, wishface, is that they don't need to agree that you have condition X, Y, or Z, because your eligibility for ESA is not based on whether you have a named, diagnosed, condition or not. It is based on how your difficulties affect your ability to find and keep work.
Just tell them, honestly and openly, what difficulties you have and how they affect your ability to find and keep work.
If your difficulties do meet the eligibility crieria, then you, most probably, will win the appeal.
If your difficulties do not meet the eligibility crieria, then you, most probably, will not win the appeal.
Don't worry about what diagnosis you may, or may not, have, it is not relevant, it just makes explaining the difficulties easier.
I don't understand what you mean.stranger said:Scorpion is right - it's not about the diagnosis. Else you'd have some people with Autism who are capable of working claiming ESA when they shouldn't be.
I think you will find that those breaks are written in law and an employer can't choose to ignore them.
if the tribunal is scheduled before i can get a diagnosis then i'll have to attend without one anyway. They won't put it off (unless, ironically, you have a diagnosis, I suppose!).
But i just cannot believe that they, beyond anyone else, will agree that I have such a condition without one. Otherwise you'd have a lot more people than even are being passed already getting through surely. If regular doctors are reluctant to believe the possibility of these kinds of condition, why would a tribunal doctor and a judge be any different?
I don't suppose it matters. They will decide whatever they decide regardless anyway.
But the problem isn't even about the diagnosis, though I don't know what will happen if i'm not diagnosed (i'll still feel exactly the same as I do now). The whole peocess is intended to determine whether you can work, not whether your condition is valid or your claim to suffer from it is genuine. Consequently they could very well think, yes he has XYZ, but he can still work!
That is the problem with all of this. The mental health descriptors are woefully inadqequate for this and that's what the CAB tell me they base their approach to helping with appeals upon.
I'm not trying to be negative to what people have said, I feel exactly the same. But the problem is I cannot assume that the tribunal will be positive. I cannot even assume I'll get a diagnosis. Not everyone succeeds, even at tribunal. If it was that easy, well we wouldn't be having this conversation I suspect.
Even then I still have to contend with the Work Programme sooner or later, and, worse, what comes afterward (my time ends next April), and that sounds horrific.
No, but with evidence you have a stronger case. I don't know your circumstances it may be that your problems were more readily perceptible or credible in some way perhaps. The WCA decides that, because you can talk and walk 'normally' and aren't climbing the walls, that you can handle work. I don't see that changing at a tribunal at all. Especially without a specialist in your condition - hence the need for a diagnosis.wishface said:[quote][/quote]
[quote] it's not about the diagnosis it's about what you are and are not able to do.[/quote]
From everything you've said, I'm just like you.
I got to the age of 37 without a diagnosis, because the problems I was having were not at all perceived by anyone around me - even my own family did not know what I was going through day in, day out, for my entire life.
I went through school without anyone suspecting I was anything other than 'a bit shy'.
I went to university, got a degree in my special interest, and still no one noticed anything.
I got a job, doing my special interest, and still no one noticed, well, I say that, and that's how it seemed at the time, but looking back I think perhaps some of my bosses did pick up on some of my struggles, because this is when things started to fall apart - my coping strategies started to fail, I started missing whole days of work because I was exhausted, and eventually, after moving through several jobs, none of which lasted particularly long, I ended up long-term unemployed.
And then I went back to a life of struggling along with noone seeming to notice. Noone seeming to cate.
I went to the job center. I jumped through their hoops. And no-one noticed how hard it was for me.
And so it just got worse, and it just got harder, until it all became too much, I was on the edge of breakdown and I had to do something.
I signed myself off sick, put in an application for ESA, and went to see my GP.
And then there I was back in the world of struggling along and no-one seeming to notice.
My GP dismissed me with phrases like "every one get's stress at work", "you're too eloquent to be depressed", and "there's nothing wrong with you". He refused to give me sick notes even though I explained to him that the DWP were still processing my claim and that they wouldn't pay me any money at all if I didn't send them a sick note.
He even got the practice nurse to come out and threaten to call the police when I went back into the surgery and was just sitting quietly, waiting for him to phone my parents as they had been told he would.
As I've said before, and because of all this, I had no evidence of my Asperger's going in to the WCA, I still had no evidence when I went to the tribunal, in fact we had to tell them that we didn't have evidence from my GP because he'd been so unsupportive.
But though all this I persisted, I knew something was wrong, I knew what I'd believed for most of my life - that every one must find life as hard as I do, and that they must simply have something in them that I don't have, some resilience, some ability to carry on, despite how hard everything was - I knew that had to be wrong, because nobody could be resilient to the daily torture that I was living, and then, fortunately, I got to see a student doctor who was at my GPs surgery, instead of my normal GP, and he was sympathetic, and then I heard a radio program in whch adults with Asperger's talked about it was like, and then I knew, I knew why I was different, and the student doctor agreed to refer me for diagnosis, and I was going through the, as it seemed at the time, painfully drawn out process of getting assessed by the right person, when my ESA appeal hearing date arrived.
So, no, my problems were not "more readily perceptible or credible in some way", but yes, I found, despite my reservations and believe like you do now that the people in the hearing would just the same as all the rest of them, that they, in my appeal hearing, wouldn't believe me, they'd dismiss my difficulties as being irrelevent, and that it would be a waste of time, that, actually, they listened, they too were sympathetic, they took on board what myself and my mum told them, they understood how it affected me, and they didn't dismiss me because I had no diagnostic proof.
And, as I said before, I won my appeal.
You see, your story, as I've since found out, is typical of the exact type of cases that are missed, that get refused by the DWP at the WCA stage, but, when they go to appeal, usually are succesfull.
I'm sure I wouldn't have believed it at the time I was going through it either, but I'm telling you, as someone who's been through what you're going through, and made it out to the otherside, if you get the right support, and help, which, if you have noone else, can come from the CAB, you too can get through it, you can make it to the other side, and things can get better.
Have faith, be strong, and know: you are not the first to tread this path and, sadly, you won't be the last.
Hopefully, in a few years time, you too, like me, will be here, trying to help someone else, who is in the situation you're now in, to get through it too.
Scorpion is right - it's not about the diagnosis. Else you'd have some people with Autism who are capable of working claiming ESA when they shouldn't be.
I think you will find that those breaks are written in law and an employer can't choose to ignore them.
No, but with evidence you have a stronger case. I don't know your circumstances it may be that your problems were more readily perceptible or credible in some way perhaps. The WCA decides that, because you can talk and walk 'normally' and aren't climbing the walls, that you can handle work. I don't see that changing at a tribunal at all. Especially without a specialist in your condition - hence the need for a diagnosis.Scorpion0x17 said:[quote] it's not about the diagnosis it's about what you are and are not able to do.[/quote]
stranger said:Most people would struggle if they had to work on a computer all day. Hence why companies (I worked for one as a Christmas temp) give you hourly breaks.
You don't have to be completely blind to score 15 points on the descriptors for eye sight. I'm not completely blind and scored 15 points that way. (my eye condiitons are fairly complex and can't be corrected with any aids)
Some companies might. Others will just think you are a lazy scrounger and cut you loose. This is the state we are in; it's an employers market and people with problems don't stand a chance.
I don't know what the fully list of descriptors for sight are. At the WCA the assessor didn't conduct any kind of optical test (and I know optical tests, I've had enough in my time). It was just 'read this sentence' off a laminated card and ok good you're sight is fine.
This is the problem with this ridiculous WCA; it's not representative of the reality of holding down a job. They just think that "you've turned up for the test, you're not peeing your pants and speaking in tongues, you can work full time no problem. Now get down to Poundland and do some workfare".
But those failures probably have an actual clinical diagnosis to back them up.wishface said:[quote][/quote]
Yeah, it might not be quite that high any more - I should have said my figures were from when I was going through the appeals process.
I believe the rate of both WCA failures, and then successfull appeals, is higher in the AS/ASD community than in the wider claimant population, though.
I didn't, wishface, and my appeal was successful.
Now, I'm sure you'll say I was lucky, but the statistics show that the majority of people that appeal are successful - it's highly unlikely that all of those had an actual diagnosis (well, in fact it's impossible, because I didn't).
It was not luck. It's just the way the system works.
And, in my previous post, I put 'normal' in inverted commas like that precisely because you're right, it's a screwed up system that doesn't cater for people like us very well at all. But that is precisely why your experiences are 'normal' - almost everyone like us goes through the exact same hell when trying to get ESA.
But, as I've now said multiple times, but is worth repeating - the majority of appeals (and, I believe, for an even greater percentage in the AS/ASD community) are succesfull.
Also, whether you have a diagnosis or not is irrelevent - it is the difficulties you have that are important, and are what the judgement should be (and in the appeal hearing is) made on - not the label that is put on those difficulties. Otherwise they would have no assesment process at all - they'd just say "if you have X, Y, Z you can get ESA, if you don't you can't" - but they don't because some people with X may be able to work, and some with X can't - it's not about the diagnosis it's about what you are and are not able to do.
Most people would struggle if they had to work on a computer all day. Hence why companies (I worked for one as a Christmas temp) give you hourly breaks.
You don't have to be completely blind to score 15 points on the descriptors for eye sight. I'm not completely blind and scored 15 points that way. (my eye condiitons are fairly complex and can't be corrected with any aids)
But those failures probably have an actual clinical diagnosis to back them up. I don't, yet. I'm waiting to be seen. Even then I can't assume the diagnosis will be favouarble. They might think there's nothing wrong with me. Then what? I'll just be seen as a scrounger and probably a fraudster.Scorpion0x17 said:Yeah, it might not be quite that high any more - I should have said my figures were from when I was going through the appeals process.
I believe the rate of both WCA failures, and then successfull appeals, is higher in the AS/ASD community than in the wider claimant population, though.
There's no chance that will happen to me. Not a chance in hell. The Mental Health descriptors don't apply at all. They dont' come close to conditions like ADD and don't address the issues I have.stranger said:I think it's nearer 70%. But yes, it's stupidly high. (in the sense that many shouldn't be going to appeal in the first place and not that too many are winning when they shouldn't be)
There is a regulation / exemption thing regarding working affecting your health and /or that of others if you were to return to work. I did argue on that point (i would just have meltdowns because of my noise issues) and a few descriptors when I did my ESA50 and was put into the support group with no face to face.
I also have eye problems but they weren't taken very seriously. If i had to work in an office, on a pc all day, I'd really struggle. All the assessor did was ask me to read a couple of lines on the eye chart and that was it. A full optical test, not! Evne then that's not enough to score 15 points. To score enough on the basis of sight alone you'd have to be completely blind - and even then people who can't see are still being passed as fit to work. Who the hell is going to employ a blind person in this day and age? There are over 3 million unemployed that can see!
Scorpion0x17 said:Don't feel so down, wishface.
As crazy as it seems what you describe is absolutely 'normal'.
Very few people on the spectrum pass the WCA - so you're right on track there - as you say, they don't assess anything like the right kinds of things for AS and ASDs.
Also just about everybody 'fails the first part of the appeal' - right on track again there too - basically the first part of the appeal consists of the DWP saying "no, we're going to change our decision" which they almost always do say.
The CAB are absolutely correct, ESA is not just for people that can't work - it's also for people who want to, but need extra help in getting, and staying in, work.
And, lastly, the people you'll see are not DWP employees, they will be a very highly trained Doctor (and, yes, they are a real Doctor), and a very highly trained Judge - as I believe I explained before it is the job of the Doctor to explain to the Judge how your condition affects your ability to work, the Judge then sees how that applies within the law as it is written (not the law as the DWP chooses to interpret it).
So, because the law says that ESA is for people that need extra help in getting and staying in work, I forget the exact statistics, but something like 80% or 90% of all appeals are successful.
Hang in there. Things do get better.
I didn't even have my Asperger's diagnosis when I went to appeal - I just strongly suspected that I had it (and was on the path towards a diagnosis) - and my appeal was succesful at the tribunal.
If you are open, and truthful, the Doctor will see what difficulties you have.
There is nothing normal about any of this. At no point during this ridiculous appeal process am I consulted nor do I have any say. I can't for example ask them to wait until I can be seen by the diagnosis people (though god knows when that will be, or even if the GP has asked them). Instead I have to be seen by some tribunal which I find incredibly intimidating. I doubt I'll get a diagnosis appointment before then so what use will their doctor be, and he'll be biased. They all are. None of these people are knowledgeable in these sorts of conditions and without any kind of decent evidence there's no way they will take me seriously. How many doctors are there that are knowledgeable in every condition conceivable? That seems to be what's expected of this person in this capacity. As for a judge? He's just going to take one look at me and think I'm a scrounger and then probably do me for bloody benefit fraud.
I don't trust any of this and I certainly don't feel particularly comfortable about attending such a place. This is the difficulty I have. I got through the WCA because the place was empty and, as luck would have it, I didn't have to wait over an hour as I was initially told (because an assessor became available - the person after me instead had to wait). I also knew full well what to expect from the assessment. I knew it was going to be a waste of time, and because it's one to one and you aren't seen by someone like a bloody judge, I felt I had nothing to lose. That's not a good thing though. That's fatalism. I knew they wouldn't understand the problems I have so I had nothing to lose. It could have been different; if i'd been stuck in that waiting room (and the receptionist was a right cow) it would have been a very different story.
Nothing about this situation is positive. I have no guarantee the CAB can help, nor that a tribunal will give me a fair hearing, nor even that I can get a diagnosis quick enough to take to that tribunal. They certainly won't wait for that and the people that I see, my GP and the CMHT assessor I saw last month, just don't have a clue about any of this. The CMHT guy was a right waste of space: he said he'd ask about getting a diagnosis locally and then didn't bother. When I rang back last week to find out what was happening with that because I had heard nothing, he acted as if he had said nothing of the kind. This kind of ignorance and uselessness is becoming the norm.
I wish I could be rid of this whole system, but what choice is there? Go back onto JSA and deal with the mardy old cow at the JC as well as all the changes to the system like the appalling Universal Jobmatch and the incoming 35 hour a week jobsearch requirement for claiming? We don't stand a chance.
Yeah, it might not be quite that high any more - I should have said my figures were from when I was going through the appeals process.
I believe the rate of both WCA failures, and then successfull appeals, is higher in the AS/ASD community than in the wider claimant population, though.
I think it's nearer 70%. But yes, it's stupidly high. (in the sense that many shouldn't be going to appeal in the first place and not that too many are winning when they shouldn't be)
There is a regulation / exemption thing regarding working affecting your health and /or that of others if you were to return to work. I did argue on that point (i would just have meltdowns because of my noise issues) and a few descriptors when I did my ESA50 and was put into the support group with no face to face.
Don't feel so down, wishface.
As crazy as it seems what you describe is absolutely 'normal'.
Very few people on the spectrum pass the WCA - so you're right on track there - as you say, they don't assess anything like the right kinds of things for AS and ASDs.
Also just about everybody 'fails the first part of the appeal' - right on track again there too - basically the first part of the appeal consists of the DWP saying "no, we're going to change our decision" which they almost always do say.
The CAB are absolutely correct, ESA is not just for people that can't work - it's also for people who want to, but need extra help in getting, and staying in, work.
And, lastly, the people you'll see are not DWP employees, they will be a very highly trained Doctor (and, yes, they are a real Doctor), and a very highly trained Judge - as I believe I explained before it is the job of the Doctor to explain to the Judge how your condition affects your ability to work, the Judge then sees how that applies within the law as it is written (not the law as the DWP chooses to interpret it).
So, because the law says that ESA is for people that need extra help in getting and staying in work, I forget the exact statistics, but something like 80% or 90% of all appeals are successful.
Hang in there. Things do get better.
I didn't even have my Asperger's diagnosis when I went to appeal - I just strongly suspected that I had it (and was on the path towards a diagnosis) - and my appeal was succesful at the tribunal.
If you are open, and truthful, the Doctor will see what difficulties you have.
I failed the WCA, scored zero. Hardly a surprise. The test has nothing to do with health and has no understanding of mental health never mind neuro diversity. It is a farce.
There are 7 mental health descriptors none of which address any of the issues I face.
I have lodged an appeal for all the good it will do, but the CAB tell me that all they can try and do is match up your issues to the descriptors because this is the only way forward. Hopwever tthe DWP claims that ESA isn't just for people that cannot work; it's for people that need some help - even those in work. I don't have any faith in the CAB as they, like most people, don't understand these sorts of conditions at all.
I've already failed the first part of the appeal (mainly because i've had to wait for the CAB to get me an appointment with them to actually do the appeal). So apparently now it goes to tribunal. Id on't really feel I can deal with a tribunal of judgemental people who won't understand anything. They, like everyone else, will simply look at me and decide I can work.
This whole situation is a sick joke.
Well from a different perspective... I waited seven long months for my ATOS medical and read all sorts of scary stuff about it on the internet - when the day came I was terrified and resigned to appealing. In reality it was ok - unpleasant but ok. The doctor was kind and had obviously read the form I had filled in previously. Lots of questions but I felt that my condition and the difficulties I have were understood and accepted. I got placed in the support group. As I understand it the medical thing/criteria has been changed quite recently to account for conditions such as autism. I was worried cause i never seem to quite fit into any of the boxes on forms but the "it varies" box helped. In hindsight I wish I'd never used google to look up all the horror stories! 
Yeah, that sounds about right, wishface, regarding ESA.
Rgarding the appeal, there will most likely be two people there - a judge and a doctor - (well, actually there will probably be three, but the other person, if there is one, will just be a security person, who's only there to deal with people likely to get violent) - they'll ask you questions, about how things affect you, and so on, and then they'll spend some time discussing you case - the doctor is there to inform the judge's decision, the judge is there to see that the decision fits the law - you may or may not find out whether the appeal is succesfull or not on the day (depends on when in the day the hearing is).
Oh, and you should get an opportunity to submit any evidence you may have before hand.
Hope that's of some help.
