Sexual inappropriateness and autism

I'm quite concerned by some of the replies here.

Sex IS difficult - especially with the piles of gender roles and pressures, guilt and shame and embarresment thrown on top. It relies on an infinite number of minute and silent cues and suggestions and NTs get it wrong too.

Blameitonthefruit gave a great reply. The key thing is CONSENT. Unpack and forget everything you *think* should happen during sex, and talk directly and openly and directly about what you and partner(s) want and what your boundaries are. Its not an easy conversation the first timeand it requires everyone to be a bit vulnerable but the resulting intimacy is worth it.

And if all that feels like hard work and you want to take some time off from sex - that's fine too.

Another vote for Dan Savage podcast for some examples of unpacking societal expectations re-framing relationships for the benefit of the people in them.

This is a really really good reply

Hi Ash,

I'm a mid-life bisexual woman on the spectrum who grew up unaware (and uninformed) of my neurodiversity. Like piexiefox said previously, I feel like I may have a more informed perspective on this then the male responders on this thread as someone who has thought about it from both sides (NT presuming/ND). As someone who did not grow up with an understanding that I was neurodivergent I always assumed my failings were my fault and so have been very proactive when it comes to understanding and mediating my own behavior in order to get by in the normative world.

First, I’d recommend having conversations with your partner(s) about consent (what both of your boundaries are and what you like) before you are intimate with them. I've struggled with understanding these signals in the moment myself my whole life, but as a female presenting person this has typically been taken as awkwardness instead of shifty intentions. I grew up with two brothers and had mostly male friends in my adolescent and early adult life, so I understand that your concern is coming from a genuine place, and that your emotional life is just as complex as anyone else’s. Unfortunately male presenting people are typically educated into understanding themselves and their role in heteronormative relationships/society as less emotional and more rational and dominating. That version of “male” identity is as constructed & fraught with the problematics of biological determinism/genetic determinism as the conversation around people on the autism spectrum being inherently “disorder”ed instead of our diversity being embraced as one of the many valid representations of the human experience.

For me writing has been a very helpful to organize my thoughts around things that are emotionally overwhelming or confusing in the moment. Perhaps you could propose to future partners a preliminary conversation in which you both express your boundaries and preferences. You could do this in written form or in conversation with a some simple bullet pointed notes for yourself to reference in the moment if you feel you're forgetting or missing something important (this happens to me a lot). I think it's particularly important for you to talk about the ways in which being on the spectrum informs the communication limitations (and increased capacity to connect fully once you get past this first stage, in my experience) you may have once you’re in the moment, so that your partner knows how to communicate in order to have their needs heard and met and how to do the same for you.

It's important to understand that multiple things are happening at once here, and that while your pain and confusion is 100% valid, so are the concerns and reservations of the women you are intimate with. It’s not one or the other. I have my own experiences with sexual manipulation and abuse, but I am also aware that most (not just some) of the NT women in my family and social circle have at least one very real and traumatic experience of sexual assault or abuse. This means that in the moment they may also be unable to communicate their boundaries clearly- trauma scrambles the brain in the moment it is reactivated- and for someone who has experienced sexual trauma there may be some level of disassociation activated every time they engage in sexual activity. Without establishing where you’re coming from before you are in a moment of intimacy you may both end up acting in harmful ways towards each other.

Even if women haven't had these experiences themselves, we are raised in a world that tells us to act as if we're responsible for bringing on the abuse we suffer through the way we present ourselves, while at the same time being told (and being shown very real consequences in professional and social realms) that if we do not meet normative aesthetic and social standards (which require a high level of harmful internalized objectification) we will be targeted as insubordinate and/or problematic and socially ostracized. This is not a theory, it’s a description of my life as I have experienced it, and I know at this point in my life that this experience is the rule, not the exception. I hope that this feeling can resonate across experience and that some of the responders in this thread can hear the abuse they are regurgitating as people who have suffered marginalization themselves. Please consider this intersectional experience of marginalization as a way of being able to find more intimacy (the kind of intimacy you actually want instead of the kind men are told they want- and that is up to you to define) with your partners rather than limiting your options for sexual connection. 

There has been a lot of good public discussion around this in recent years, discussions that offer alternative ways of engaging in sexual communication for males who are given little to no information on this under the patriarchal norms of NT society, or who are treated as weak or overly sensitive when they ask questions. But the more you understand about the perspective of the people you’re being intimate with the easier it will be to interpret their needs, boundaries and limitations in the moment.  You’re not weak at all, you’re strong for having the gall to ask publicly when the consequences are so apparent. If more men would make themselves vulnerable for the sake of understanding and respecting the experiences of those who have divergent perspectives we would live in a world that was kinder to all of us.

I’m linking a few articles that I think may be of use- no single source that I’ve found addresses your question directly, but together these are a good start.  

When You’re On The Autistic Spectrum, Consent Is Complicated

https://theestablishment.co/when-youre-on-the-autistic-spectrum-consent-is-complicated-81b16663a43d/index.html

the Savage Love show (dating, sex and relationship advice from a hetero-divergent perspective- lot’s of conversations about consent, tools for communicating about it, and the different ways people negotiate it)

https://www.savagelovecast.com/

How to talk about consent

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/relationships/sexual-consent/how-do-i-talk-about-consent

(this source is very NT biased in terms of advice, haven’t found any that aren’t, but I think it could be helpful to start with this model and use it to think about how writing or other forms of communication could be incorporated or substituted to meet your specific needs)

How trauma functions in the brain

https://labblog.uofmhealth.org/lab-report/a-traumatic-memory-can-be-near-impossible-to-shake

ps:

The most advanced conversations around consent I’ve found come from grassroots queer communities. Tune into more queer culture sources (writers, educators, artists, etc.) for expanded perspectives on sexuality and community care across divergent experiences. 

Hi Ash, I believe you're male and I think all the replies you've had so far are from other males. I'm an older woman so I thought it might help if you had a female perspective on this.

Of course, I am autistic and the women you've slept with may not be, plus I'm  in a long term relationship with a high level of mutual understanding, so my responses may be different to some other women.

Anyway, in my opinion a woman should speak up or physically direct things in a different direction if she is not comfortable with a situation. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the things you have described yourself doing and in my view they do not seem abusive. We all make mistakes when younger and learn from them - it's damaging and pointless to keep revisiting those times as you can't change the past, only the future.

I think that some women have this airy fairy idea that a man should take the lead in bed but they also expect him to be able to read their minds and know instinctively if they are uncomfortable. I think these women are probably constantly disappointed, whether they are with Aspie or NT men. In my experience, Aspie men are more likely to be concerned about making them happy.

It takes two to tango, they say. My interpretation of this saying is that both partners need to contribute. 

I hope things improve for you.

It's not the advice he asked for as he said himself. It's you trying to push your own politics on him.. And even worse insulting a whole generation of people.

Why have all the upticks on ash's posts disappeared.  That's a bit odd.  I hope none of you are into hacking?  His were the top comments and now Plastic's are.

Ash - you’re a millennial so I’m not surprised you get all shirty when offered advice you’ve asked for. You’re whole generation are the ones who are destroying society. 

NAS62563 said:

A few weeks later I heard from our mutual friends that she was telling them I forced it upon her.

And that, I'm afraid, is the modern experience.       Immature adult 'children' playing grown up games but blaming others for their poor judgement - but without any responsibility or accountability - and that had the potential to become very nasty if one of her friends decided to tell the police.

It is very difficult to get it "just right" between being too forward and not enough. I wouldn't overthink it but I would try to think about it logically that yes some people may not wish to be touched so much with no space.

I have a similar experience to this when after a party I was sleeping next to a girl in the dark. She kissed me first and then took her clothes off so I went along with it, we didn't have sex but touched each other. A few weeks later I heard from our mutual friends that she was telling them I forced it upon her. That was not the case at all as she has kissed me first and taken her clothes off. It did make me think though so I believe that with more experiences I have learned better how to not overdo it. I haven't had any other issues since this everything seems to have gone fine and I have tried to read signals like once the girl I slept with got out of bed in the morning and stayed downstairs which was a que that she didn't want to do any more.

Intimacy is complicated and it's rarely perfect - so asking NTs to pin down exactly how they feel about it afterwards will very likely get answers that you don't like.       And the more you push, the worse the answer will be.     It's very likely their feelings are all mixed up about it - there's often regret, shame, disgust, self loathing - so what are you looking for from them?        Are you looking for some kind of certificate of competency from them?         How well do you really know them before going to bed with them?        How well do you think they know themselves?     

But these are women who I trust and who were very kindly telling me how I made them feel. Their feelings are genuine and valid, and it hurts me so much that I hurt them. They are not trying to ‘take advantage of my naivety’- they had no idea that I was autistic, and neither did I. If they felt uncomfortable then I care about that greatly, and feel terrible about it. As I said in my OP, I have been in an abusive relationship with a woman, so I know very well what abuse looks like, and how it feels to be on the receiving end of abuse. Abusers are abusers regardless of gender- but women who feel uncomfortable in a sexual situation and speak up about it are not being abusive on any way. To automatically assume so is misogynist, and is not what I was trying to talk about with this thread.

What Plastic said.

Like Plastic said - theyre playing! So they felt uncomfortable - so what - are they snow flakes? Yes. Maybe if you had abused them in some way but you hadn't so being uncomfortable is just life. 

I have mad as many if not more errors just like yours regarding this stuff. don't worry about it. I'd avoid those women though if I were you. 

I think they are suggesting that the women you're dealing with are messing you around - using your good intentions and naivete against you when it suits them.      It is also sometimes known as 'monkey branching'.

People can be quite horrible if it suits their agenda - and intimacy gives people a lot of power over another to use and abuse.

What are you posting this for? No-one has gaslighted me or played the victim. I upset some people who I really cared about because I didn’t understand that my behaviour was inappropriate. I’m not interested in your misogyny, thanks.

Observe modern feminism, victim playing, and gaslighting.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/