A rabbit stuck in the gas-light

DongFeng5, Thank you for the time and consideration spent on your reply. It is much appreciated. 

In terms of point 1 - I am giving much thought to the key things that keep me level and are in line with my values. There needs greater time to be afforded to these things. One cannot support ourselves and others if our own self is not nurtured.

Item 3 is also very much relevant in that if there is greater responsibilities required of me then conversely greater weight needs to be given for time to have time to be who I need to be. This has to be on my terms and not in an NT setting. This community has facilitated the opportunity to express myself with like wired souls. It also pays for me to spend time with kinder and more understanding folk in order to regain some balance and self acceptance.

The above paragraph kind of helps answer point 2, There are many thinks that I would like to be able to do, experience. I need to read more as this helps me regularly frame and regulate my thoughts and conversely self expression. That is a constant.

best wishes and thank you. 

1) With consideration to how you spend your time, what might your ideal week look like? 8 hours' sleep leaves you 16 to play for, but you've already said you spend 2 hours 44 minutes online (your 15% in accordance with your values). Presumably you're spending at least 7 hours a day at work, and at least another hour on your commute, plus at least 30 mins for lunch. Perhaps, like me, you also need some "shell shock" time where you don't have to interact with others and aren't really able to do much of anything? I am sure I needn't labour the point any further; which time sinks do you keep in your life, and what might get the elbow in an effort to redress the balance?

2) As a result of 1), reviewing the list of aspirations you have (writing, further studies...) which of them are actually realistically achievable given your current constraints (age, finances, parental responsibility...)? Which items are, upon reflection, dreams that you may have to say goodbye to when you prioritise other goals more highly as a result of your values?

3) Considering the potential downside of your partner's medical outlook, to what extent might such an outcome place you in a position of relative power and strength, where you are better able to "call the shots as you see fit"? Is there an opportunity for you to define for yourself how things are going to be from now on?

Dear PS

Never feel you have to answer questions but I very much value your honest and lucid response. I totally get the “going into third person” mode. Sussing it all act, the scenes actors, their motivations, their interactions. Trying to interpret it all before deciding if it’s safe to “step in” to that space.

The more performance comes the norm - whether hoping to keep below the radar and for self preservation the inner and true self with its values gets squished into a much smaller space. So small it can get lost or forgotten

thank you  

Hi Ellie,

I agree that shifting can be damaging, especially when it goes too far. When I was at University, I allowed one group of people to essentially treat me like a mascot because I couldnt gain acceptance at their level of social behaviour, i.e. 'Being One of the Lads'. It was good having friends, but allowing people to patronise you is quite damaging to your self esteem. Another time in my 20s & during my divorce (thirty years ago), I became very good friends with people that drank at a local Irish Pub & shifted almost entirely for about two years, even to the extent of acquiring a different accent.

As I have gotten older though, I have become better at avoiding extremes & always strongly maintain my core moral values. When I first meet a new group of people, I often get a slight feeling of depersonalisation, as if I am watching myself from a 3rd person, but as I analyse & learn more about the group, it gets easier to mould myself into something acceptable. I rely a lot on humour nowadays, since everyone likes to laugh. Eventually though, it just becomes like a suit of clothes I automatically where in that context, i.e another self.

If I spend too much time alone though, it feels almost like I don't know who I am supposed to be & my thoughts turn in on themselves in a highly self destructive manner. All of the social mistakes in my past become capital crimes as my subconscious incessantly reminds me of why I am an utter failure as a person who will never really fit in anywhere, no matter how had I try. The fear that people will suddenly realise that I don't really fit in with their social group is always at the back of my mind, hence why shifting is an automatic reflex for me that is impossible to turn off.

In the company of friends though, my subconscious is usually completely silent because it is completely occupied in ensuring I create the right impression. There are some good videos by Jim Carrey online about his struggles with identity, although he resolved his issues using new age mysticism, so they get a bit weird when he describes his life now.

I have read books & listened to many talks on positive thinking (concentrate on positive attributes etc), but the negative voices in my head just openly mock & laugh at them. I have a good group of friends around me at the moment that keep me stable, but knowing that I have no intrinsic sense of stability & possibly never will is a very depressing thought.

Hope this answers your questions,

As a postscript. I have read that it is quite common for those on the spectrum to convey emotion through physical and practical acts. Consider the following from the website www.musingsofanaspie.com

"Aspies and NTs speak completely different languages when it comes to expressions of love. You can either learn to translate your partner’s “love language” or you can spend the rest of your marriage wondering if this person you’re sleeping next to every night really, actually loves you.

How does this translation work? Like this:

The Scientist: “You don’t have to make my lunch every morning. I can pick something up in the cafeteria.”

Me: “I don’t mind. It only takes a few minutes and I know you’d rather have something healthy to eat. This way you don’t have to waste time waiting in line.”

The Scientist: “So you mean you make my lunch because you care about me, right?”

Exactly."

Thank you DongFeng5

The best way I can try to explain it is following a spiral of learnt behaviour patterns.  The less I felt that I fitted in the more I negated myself to appease others and then display a pattern of learnt behaviours which mean that I mute myself. The self is boxed up and put aside as if I display who I am I am more likely to misperform and get challenged.

From a historical point of view as I had an insular childhood - sat in my room reading, walking in the countryside. I have two siblings - both strong willed and vocal individuals as I was quiet and no bother I tucked myself into the shadows.

When my mother walked out from the family home when I was 14 I took on those domestic duties - I wanted to help and support the best was I could. Those chores also helped my internal myself again as a way of processing and dealing with things. My dad took the split hard and I tried in my own way to offer practical support - being too young to be able to offer support emotionally.  So, there in some ways starts the process of being practically useful in order to prove worth.

It was a challenge, it also meant that I disengaged with two very close school friends. They went down their path of being young teenagers - parties, boyfriends etc and I feel off the radar and internalised. It wasn't a planned disengagement we just went down our own individual roads.

After a period of time I struggled to cope with things and went to life with my mum and her new partner.  It didn't work out.. I got in the way. I was told to go back to living with my dad. I felt that I couldn't cope with going back (and there was a guilt about that) so ended up living in a hostel for a while for the first year of my A Levels.  I had to eventually return as I reached the age where benefits stopped and spent the year focusing on my studies and still carrying out domestic duties with a view of getting to university.  The latter was a personal aspiration but also a catalyst to change the path that I was on.

I got to uni. I then graduated and got employed very soon after.  I then met husband no. 1 and moved away, got married and undertook another degree and teacher training. Then had a child once my training was finished. I became provider again, I undertook all of the childcare duties which I enjoyed. Again, I got on with it but felt hurt that myself and my partner weren't doing and enjoying raising a child and living as a couple - i.e together. Again, I didn't fit, I outwardly seemed to be coping, and doing the right thing, so was left to it.  The relationship gradually declined - he moved into the spare room as didn't want his sleep disturbed by night feeds. Statements like, I don't love you anymore but I still like you... to nothing.  With the demands of us both working and child rearing we kind of lost each other. In the end, we parted but amicably, which is a blessing.

I communicated the split to my parents via email. They read and understood and let me crack on with it.

So... before i waffle on anymore to a certain extent you can see that I am my own worst enemy.

1. Due to poor self esteem and a capability to "do" and "provide" I slip into those behaviours as I think that is what people feel useful and what they want from me.
2. Conversely, if i reach a point that I am no longer "useful" or able to do the above then there is a fear then I will be booted out.
3. The "head down and get on with it" mentally then means that I neglect the self that might need help and support.  I am very good and solving this practically logically but then comes at the expense of parking the emotional processing. So, that builds up and then there are wobbles.  The wobbles are infrequent on deal with internally or when people aren't around and I feel able to let my guard down - so, when they do happen people don't know what to make of it.

Then..on the flip side is self agency.

1. I left the parental home to go to university - a selfish act but one that has enabled a good career and financial stability.  It also feeds my brain as menial and practical day to day living can be SO dull!
2. The determination to have agency - not in an outrageous way - I would like to write, undertake a pHD, engage in activities and interests that are not shared by those around me - i.e. reading, going to the theatre, walks in the countryside. These are not threatening or expensive pursuits but are needed to keep me balanced and centred.

The 85% negated values is a misbalance which needs addressing. I see two pathways. Shout more loudly or try to negotiate fresh terms of engagement.  i.e. If you want me to provide and do, I will, but in turn i need to nurture those values that make me, me!

There any several elements that have caused that shift.  The fact that I will be more heavily relied upon when my OH leaves hospital and his needs are physical and practical. I am the family go to for advice or practical support but no one asks if I am ok or seems able to seek me as an entity in my own right. 

They enjoy social events, shopping etc....all which I struggle with and don't fit into. i simply don't fit but I will do what I do best. Because I don't fit I am often perceived as being anti-social or arrogant. There is a gulf of understanding - mind the gap.

With my OH being in hospital I have had a little more time on my own to reflect and my son is now a teenager and more self-reliant (he still loves and needs his mum mind!) so it affords opportunity to go back to past pleasures (reading, walking etc).

The world around me is behind a thick sheet of glass - I can see the actors before me but am separate to and from. I realise that I am never going to fit... but I'm not really helping myself either.

I could "got it alone" remove myself as the misfit puzzle piece from the box. I am obviously pretty rubbish at relationships and keep repeating the same behaviour patterns until i withdraw into myself completely. 

The fact that my realisation of being on the spectrum (just been referred this morning BTW for an assessment) has been a year long process thus far and adds another level of complexity. I have masked and negated self, I have kept my "*** together" and I want others to accept who I am.  The past year has been spent trying to get my OH to understand the condition and what it means..... It is important for me that this part of me is acknowledged otherwise me as a being is "not important" after all. I am trying to work out if this is because he does NOT want to understand, CAN'T understand, or simply WON'T. 

On an existential level it is important to me that people understand what I am about and those values.  At present they seem negated.

Phew - tired typing fingers now!

Pirate Santa said:

as far as I am concerned, I am being myself, it's just that my sense of self isn't a constant.

That's a really interesting point.  Is that due to yourself changing to suit each different circumstance and audience or the self changes in response/reaction to your encounters?

Pirate Santa said:

only seem to have a strong sense of self around other people & find being on my own for extended periods of time very difficult as I just feel like a mass of self loathing & self recrimination rather than a coherent person.

Self loathing and self recrimination are strong emotions a huge respect to you for admitting that this is how you can feel at times.  I am sure that you have many positive attributes - can you not see and identify those?

Alright. 

Before rushing into any sudden changes, driven by angst regarding the potential additional demands which may or may not be placed upon you...

At what point in your life did you shift to 85% against? How and why did that happen?

Note: With regard to the why, how does your initial answer change when you apply recursion? (i.e. Ask yourself why in response to your initial answer, then again and again until you've answered yourself four or five times. 

Again, you need not post the real answers. 

Presumably at no point did you wake up one morning and decide to betray yourself or be a doormat. 

You have separately mentioned that you are currently in relationship #2. 

To what extent can you identify patterns of thought or behaviour which are common to previous interpersonal relationships and the situations you have identified above?

Hits buzzer.  C (85%)

wirh a little A on account of being on here which is not really allowed (15%)

for me everything seems so compartmentalised. Work for satisfaction of emotional self, here intellectual self and connectivity, off line duty. Never as a whole, just a hole.

I know I’m asked my own unasked question ...

Good - you've defined who you are, or aspire to be. 

Thinking about your day / week / month / year, what proportions of your wakeful hours are lived:

a) in accordance with your values?

b) neutral in relation to your values?

c) to the detriment of your values?

Hi Pirate Santa

I agree that the article fits all folk and is not gender specific I just found I identified with it a great deal.

yes years of never being perceived as not quite “good enough” or not fitting in can take their toll. I think it is more damaging to try and shape shift into other people’s wants.

i have also found that I get purposefully put on the back foot to keep me in a more vulnerable and insecure place.

Ellie 

Hi Ellie,

Even though I am male, that article could easily have been describing me, especially the list of bullet points in the middle about the perception of self. As I have described in answer to one of your previous posts, I don't believe that the difference between males & females on the Autistic Spectrum are that clear cut. Certain traits are much more likely to appear in one gender rather than the other, but I don't believe that these are in any way definitively male or female.

Not sure if I have ever experienced a meltdown, but I do have anger management issues that are mostly under control. My anger is only ever expressed verbally though, as the circuit in my head seems to consider physical manifestations of anger as pointless & irrational.

My biggest problem has always been my perception of self, principally due to the bullet points in your original post being the template for my shift into adulthood. At school I was horribly bullied for many years, which burned all of those points into my head so much that after I finally escaped that environment, I openly embraced the idea of being a chameleon.

After forty years of adapting my identity to new social groupings though, I only seem to have a strong sense of self around other people & find being on my own for extended periods of time very difficult as I just feel like a mass of self loathing & self recrimination rather than a coherent person.

Case in point, I have been badly depressed for many years & unresponsive to medication or Psychotherapy (it was actually my Psychotherapist who recommended that I have an ASD test). A month ago, I made a new friend at one of the support groups I attend, who has had a profound positive effect on my identity. Every so often I meet someone who my sub-conscious seems to recognise as a positive template & I find myself absorbing large parts of their personality.

I have experienced this before & it seems to last while the other person is present in my life, but can easily dissipate if circumstances change & they are no longer around. It's really hard to describe what it's like to feel the inside of your head shifting in reponse to the presence of certain people. This isn't so much a 'Mask' as an 'Avatar', I'm not pretending to be something I am not, it's more like I can feel my head realign into something subtly different.

Whenever I describe this to people they always say that I shouldn't try to change myself for their benefit & that I should just be myself. This isn't something I can control though & as far as I am concerned, I am being myself, it's just that my sense of self isn't a constant.

I have tried to research this over the internet & found a couple of old forum entries in the USA of another guy on the Autistic Spectrum with very similar experiences, but still not sure what it means or how to stabilise my mental health.

Hi DongFeng5

You will hopefully discern from the delay in my reply that I have given your values question much thought.

1. I define myself as a humanist and where I can try to support others whether practically, emotionally etc. If my skills, temperament, experience can help others that I will step forward. I also value and respect the humanity of others. However as a caveat to that, I can give too much and as a result negate my own needs or emotionally or physically drain myself in the process and need time alone (whether hiding in the woods on a walk, or behind the mask of a book)
2. I value intellectual curiosity and the abilities of others particularly in areas where I am lacking (such as being able to express an idea or thought and being able to construct an intellectual argument or a beautiful piece of prose). I enjoy sharing my knowledge with others.  As a caveat to that, I  have a stubborn determination that I should be allowed to pursue my own intellectual curiosities as I need something for my brain to grind against and I don't think it causes harm to anyone me being able to do so. I also need that time to process things to help me understand and make sense of the world around me (and my own existential angst!) 
3. I am emotional, spiritual but also practical, pragmatic, and logical. I seek understanding and respect from others as a being as a whole. I instead tend to be valued for practical action and support we can feel like the rest of me is negated or of lesser importance.
4. I am dutiful, cautious, humble, but also have a strong sense of justice and respect other people's right to have personal freedom and the ability to express themselves. Can you see already that there is an internal conflict going on between conformity and self-expression!! Maybe that is also the aspie bit of me - I can play the good citizen buy I also need a time out card and an opportunity to rest and have quiet time for reflection and recovery.
5. I am dependable, reliable, hardworking. I care about the environment and the welfare of others and their right to equality of experience and opportunity. However, I find it difficult at times to say "no", and am likely to over-promise without always thinking through the impact of what is being asked. I don't understand why someone would want to trick,undermine or belittle someone - but I frequently feel taken advantage of in a society that seems much more self-serving.
6. Not really a value but a trait - insecurity - the seeking approval from others, permission which tends to be sought through demonstrating point 1, 3, and 5 at the detriment of 2 and 4. I don't see myself as a bad person but all of the above values (however virtuous or annoying)

I value people as a "whole", on how they treat others how they engage with the world but I don't seem to be seen as a "whole" myself. I don't fit into any particular TRIBE (another self conflict - conformity and individuality) and the article I posted for me resonates a great deal. You can't need help you seem to cope so well! Everyone is a bit autistic!, Why can't you make more of an effort at social event?

Different people and tribes seem to value elements of me but not the WHOLE. I work hard, I feel that I am a good person - but why am I always outside of the circle?

People criticise my flaws and that negates my abilities, people see the practical me, but negate the emotional needs, etc etc

I need space to be and to be respected for that as part of who I am - if that is nurtured that I am more able to get joy from supporting and providing for others - there needs to be a balance and that also needs to be sustainable.

I currently see my existence shrinking due to my current circumstance - and thus personal aspirations (writing, undertaking a pHD, having the opportunity to go out when I want, to have my own friends - i.e avenues of self expression). The balance needs to be struck - Sounds like Rousseau's Social Contract.

Phew - well, DongFeng5 - you asked.

I know, Ellie.

It very much sounds like you are in an existential tail-spin. You seem to be saying that you don't know who you are, really. 

So, I'm asking you again - what are YOUR values?

(Could be dunking chocolate bourbons in lager, if you like... the choice is yours!)

You don't have to list them here, but I challenge you to enumerate your values to yourself. 

What really matters to you? What do you truly hold dear?

This is who you really are. Live your values, not someone else's. 

Hi DongFeng5

I'm just at my wits end! I'm 43 years old and have had a lifetime so far providing for others.  I continually negate myself and my needs to provide for others.  The gaslighting reference is in reference to that notion that I don't fit in or am worthy so I seek self worth in providing for others but that in turn has meant a continual negation of self.

I guess I keep hoping (to quote Ella Fitzgerald that " Tomorrow is my turn").

I am simply not seen or acknowledged and the product of my efforts enjoyed by others and there does not seem to be any acknowledgement of how much it takes out of me or even to acknowledge the efforts that give them what they want.

It is as if I simply do not exist as a person.

I am self-diagnosed and have an OH who is well within his ability to at least take on board what I have been saying about how my aspie self impacts upon me.  He won't bother to read the articles, videos etc that I send his way to read or view. Maybe because he does not associate me with being a person in my own right or that he hopes it will blow over (it hasn't yet). Or maybe it is not important as long as his needs are met?

At present my OH is in hospital following emergency spinal surgery (three months in and likely another 5/6 weeks to go). Regardless of the Aspie stuff his family knows that his situation is a big thing, my father emails for updates on him and sends get well cards but again I seem to be negated like I don't exist.

I am the breadwinner, I pay the bills, I care for my son, but I am not allowed friends, nor social life, no consideration of what I might like to do, or what I might need. I am micromanaged and that also adds to the lack of agency and negation of myself as an individual.

I am told that I am needed "more than ever" - but there is very little left to give.  Yesterday I was in tears (I had the house to myself and could let the mask drop) and was very down. Even telling my OH last night that I was scared and worried for my own welfare and mental health met on deaf ears? Can you imagine how I felt? 

I am not a bad person. I enjoy quiet pleasures such as nature and reading but I am negated the opportunity to do what I want to do.  Does everything have to be stacked up on a post-retirement bucket list? The simple things that everyone else seems freely able to enjoy?

• If I can offer support and knowledge/advice I will - but why is it not reciprocated offline by those who "say they care?"
• When I need help why do I need to look at finding some external psychological support (and potentially at cost) because people negate or shrug their shoulders when I directly ask for help?
• I am a humanist and see see others needed support or consoling - am I not human?

Is my time of usefulness at and end, so if I hop off this mortal call, then, hey ho... time to get someone else in? Is that feeling of being invisible quite normal?

Very unhappy :( 

Hi Ellie,

Sorry for not paying attention recently. 

Sounds like you are scrabbling for an anchor. 

What are your values?