Hans Asperger

I  think no one is suggesting that people with Asperger Syndrome would have co-operated with the evil orders of the ***. as Asperger people can be disobedient.  Well people with Asperger Syndrome could cooperate and those who do not have Autism could cooperate with the ***.   Asperger people are not really Autistic but they have some of the traits of Autistic people.   Hans Asperger should have disobeyed the evil orders of sending disabled children to their death.  Really Hans Asperger should have emigrated to the USA before the war rather than carry on working under this evil system. I went to a talk in the Docklands area and the speaker was not sure whether Hans Asperger co-operated with the ***.  It is true if Hans Asperger had not carried out those evil orders he might have been arrested or killed himself.  I do hope they will drop the term ASPERGER SYNDROME.  May be call it Autistic traits instead.

David said:

Asperger people are not really Autistic but they have some of the traits of Autistic people.

This just isn’t correct. Those with Asperger’s are absolutely autistic and that is exactly what they are diagnosed with now (since Asperger’s Syndrome is no longer diagnosed). Remember that autism is a spectrum and that it takes a certain level of deficit to meet a diagnostic threshold. To say aspies merely have some traits of autistic people is wrong, because if this was the case they wouldn’t be diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome. Arguably, the majority of the population have some autistic traits...

As for changing the name due to possible connotations, I do not share your opinion though I do respect it.

Well Asperger people have more of the traits of Autism then the general population.  When I was nine a Psychiatrist wanted to send me to a School for Autistic Children.  She looked up Autism in the dictionary and it said Autism means people who cannot speak.  She did not think I was Autistic.  It was not explained to her why an Autistic School was recommended by the Maudsley Hospital.  Luckily I did not go to the Autistic School and I do not think I would have fitted in there.  Well as you say Autism is a Spectrum you can be on the edge of the Spectrum.  I am pleased that people are not being diagnosed any more because of the possible connotations thanks for letting me know.  I thought it was just the USA it is not being diagnosed any more.

David said:

You know his crime was sending disabled children to their death in a clinic in Vienna.

This was no crime at the time of the Nazi occupation, from 1938 to 1945, and Dr Asperger was in no position as such to commit the crime you insist he should have committed.

David said:

He did not kill themselves but he would refer them to a clinic to be killed by various methods including starving to death gassing or injections.

Obviously he referred them to the Am Spiegelgrund clinic in Vienna, otherwise Dr Asperger would not of been able to get the law changed, as which enabled him to save higher functional patients from being exterminated like lower functional patients.

Also, the diagnostic model he formulated is still widely respected and authoritative in terms of it guiding autistic research, diagnosis, treatment and employment.

Be instead compassionate with yourself, and show instead respect for others, and in this way you may learn instead to respect the dead.

You know his crime was sending disabled children to their death in a clinic in Vienna.  He did not kill themselves but he would refer them to a clinic to be killed by various methods including starving to death gassing or injections.

What exactly do you consider to be Hans Asperger's crime so that he is no longer appropriate to have a medical condition named after him?

1. Eugenics.

2. Being a Nazi or a Nazi collaborator.

In the case of (2) should he be stripped of his title if he was a fully paid up member of the *** and a close friend of the Fuhrer even if he did not participate in anybody being killed?

I have said before that may be they will just change it to Wing Syndrome after the late Lorna Wing any way it is not up to us what they do.

David said:

The term Asperger is already been phased out anyway

It's still in use by the NAS along with journalism and in popular terminology. The draft of ICD-11 includes it as an alternative or popular term. Whether the WHO completely deletes it from ICD-11 as a result of the paper by Herwig Czech remains to be seen.

If the NAS decides to abandon the term AS then it would mean having to withdraw existing material that they have published about AS including Asperger United.

Hans Asperger might just have been a Nazi collaborator but it is not important what I think.  It is up to the powers that be to decide what to do in the light of the new information.  The term Asperger is already been phased out anyway.  I do not believe this forum makes any difference to the issue. 

Cassandro said:

I suspect Wikipedia will correct editors' over-reactions in time. It usually does.

Time will tell. Experience has revealed that there are people who quite viciously edit Wikipedia in order to reinforce certain viewpoints - often using mainstream media references.

As a researcher of the July 7 bombings I have edited Wikipedia pages to include certain information originating from independent researchers using information sources that would stand up in academic writing or a court of law - such as FOI requests or released CCTV footage - only to find this information wiped and replaced that that which backs up the mainstream media perspective of the event.

Would it be better to think of Asperger as a 'Nazi collaborator' rather than a Nazi, since he wasn't a member of the party?

I suspect Wikipedia will correct editors' over-reactions in time. It usually does. There is no hurry to change terminology - people talk of 'imperial measurements' without agonising over the role of the British Empire in the opium wars, or use 'hung, drawn and quartered' as a joke with little reference to the horror it refers to. (Sorry, rubbish examples - I'm sure other people have better ones.)

You are certainly putting up a big argument on this forum and you have clearly stated that you want the term Asperger syndrome scrapped.

Please also answer my question whether you consider Hans Asperger a Nazi.

I am doing this off my own  bat.  It is always a good idea to contact people who can do something about it rather than argue with people who cannot make any difference.  The facts are important not what I think.  I do not have any inside information about Hans Asperger

David said:

I am not sure who makes the decisions but I am going to try and E Mail famous people in the field.

Are you doing this off your own bat or in collaboration with a wider community?

Also, do you or don't you consider Hans Asperger a Nazi?

As  far as we know Mossad only arrested Adolf Eichmann.   Mossad cannot possibly arrest or kill everybody who was a Nazi.  I am sure Mossad would not have been interested in Asperger as he is accused of killing disabled people not of murdering Jews.  Mossad should have arrested or killed Doctor Mengele as he was known to carry out disgusting experiments on Jewish Children.

It is a difficult problem for the powers that be as Asperger has already been recognised as a Syndrome for over twenty years.  May be they will decide to change its name but still make use of its discovery..  I am not sure who makes the decisions but I am going to try and E Mail famous people in the field.

His Wikipedia page has been updated recently

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Asperger

On 21 April 2018 200.101.35.37 added him to the category of Nazi Physicians.

On 22 April 2018 2603:301d:1003:3100:a242:3fff:fe2d:2d59 added him to the category Austrian ***

These two people are new to Wikipedia and have next to no record of editing articles

On 24 April 2018 Braveheart added him to the category Nazi Eugenics

This person has a long record of editing articles

There is nothing wrong with making references to Herwig Czech's paper on Wikipedia, but categorising Hans Asperger as a Nazi is a very strong move to make.

The big question is Hans Asperger a Nazi or is he not a Nazi?

Does Mossad consider Hans Asperger as a Nazi or not?

What about the NAS? If not are they comfortable with Wikipedia categorising Hans Asperger as a Nazi?

I have thought about proceeds of crime but I will have to consult expert legal advice on the matter for:

1. Whether proceeds of crime applies to the results of research and the rights to be honoured for it.

2. If (1) applies in modern day Britain whether it should also apply to deceased person who carried out their research many decades ago in a nation governed by a hostile dictatorship.

Proceeds of crime might only apply to Hans Asperger's salary and not his research findings or his right to be honoured.

Do you have a personal grievance towards Hans Asperger? Is it even possible to conclude at this point in time that he is a villain and not a hero? It took over 10 years for AS to become mainstream knowledge following the publication of a paper by Lorna Wing in 1981 and further work was carried out in the meantime. In contrast, Hans Asperger has effectively had a trial by media in 10 hours following the publication of a paper by Herwig Czech in 2018.

On an earlier point Mossad would not have bothered to kill or arrest Hans Asperger as he did not kill any Jews.  Mossad would not have wasted a bullet on Hans Asperger.  If Hans Asperger had been prosecuted it would have had nothing to do with Israel and I do not even know if any *** were prosecuted who only killed Disabled people.  If Hans Asperger had been prosecuted he would have only been prosecuted for being complicit in the murders of disabled children as he sent the children to the clinic to be murdered although he did not do it himself.  Another reason he was not prosecuted was because there might not have been enough evidence in his life time.  Just because Hans Asperger was never prosecuted it does not mean they should be a Syndrome named after him.

There is a law in this country which says that one cannot profit from the proceeds of crime.  He committed the crime of sending children to their deaths while he was working with Asperger Children.  The case for removing the Syndrome would be less strong if for example he had murdered his wife or children off duty.  If a scientist committed crimes off duty he might still loose all his  honours but as he did it on the job of making discoveries about  Autistic children the case against Asperger is compelling.  Anyway we have to decide what the powers that be decide to do.

David said:

I do understand the advantage of keeping the label Asperger Syndrome as some people might not accept the word Autistic but I think it is not right now we know that Hans Asperger was really a War criminal.

This raises an overarching question in science and medical ethics whether a person needs to have a squeaky clean past in order that they are honoured for their achievements and their name goes down in history?

To cite a hypothetical example. Imagine a middle aged person who came up with a major discovery in physics then published a paper on it. Their name then goes down in history. A year or so later somebody finds out that the same person has had a string of criminal convictions since their childhood including burglary, arson, fraud, and assaulting a police officer and the wife of (another) police officer resulting in multiple prison sentences along with an alleged involvement in a terrorist plot that is under investigation. That person will go from being a hero to a zero in the mainstream media but should they still be credited for their scientific discovery and have it named after them or are they too repugnant an individual?

David said:

I do understand the advantage of keeping the label Asperger Syndrome as some people might not accept the word Autistic but I think it is not right now we know that Hans Asperger was really a War criminal.

This raises an overarching question in science and medical ethics whether a person needs to have a squeaky clean past in order that they are honoured for their achievements and their name goes down in history?

To cite a hypothetical example. Imagine a middle aged person who came up with a major discovery in physics then published a paper on it. Their name then goes down in history. A year or so later somebody finds out that the same person has had a string of criminal convictions since their childhood including burglary, arson, fraud, and assaulting a police officer and the wife of (another) police officer resulting in multiple prison sentences along with an alleged involvement in a terrorist plot that is under investigation. That person will go from being a hero to a zero in the mainstream media but should they still be credited for their scientific discovery and have it named after them or are they too repugnant an individual?

David said:

You know his crime was sending disabled children to their death in a clinic in Vienna.

This was no crime at the time of the Nazi occupation, from 1938 to 1945, and Dr Asperger was in no position as such to commit the crime you insist he should have committed.

David said:

He did not kill themselves but he would refer them to a clinic to be killed by various methods including starving to death gassing or injections.

Obviously he referred them to the Am Spiegelgrund clinic in Vienna, otherwise Dr Asperger would not of been able to get the law changed, as which enabled him to save higher functional patients from being exterminated like lower functional patients.

Also, the diagnostic model he formulated is still widely respected and authoritative in terms of it guiding autistic research, diagnosis, treatment and employment.

Be instead compassionate with yourself, and show instead respect for others, and in this way you may learn instead to respect the dead.

You know his crime was sending disabled children to their death in a clinic in Vienna.  He did not kill themselves but he would refer them to a clinic to be killed by various methods including starving to death gassing or injections.

What exactly do you consider to be Hans Asperger's crime so that he is no longer appropriate to have a medical condition named after him?

1. Eugenics.

2. Being a Nazi or a Nazi collaborator.

In the case of (2) should he be stripped of his title if he was a fully paid up member of the *** and a close friend of the Fuhrer even if he did not participate in anybody being killed?

I have said before that may be they will just change it to Wing Syndrome after the late Lorna Wing any way it is not up to us what they do.

David said:

The term Asperger is already been phased out anyway

It's still in use by the NAS along with journalism and in popular terminology. The draft of ICD-11 includes it as an alternative or popular term. Whether the WHO completely deletes it from ICD-11 as a result of the paper by Herwig Czech remains to be seen.

If the NAS decides to abandon the term AS then it would mean having to withdraw existing material that they have published about AS including Asperger United.

Hans Asperger might just have been a Nazi collaborator but it is not important what I think.  It is up to the powers that be to decide what to do in the light of the new information.  The term Asperger is already been phased out anyway.  I do not believe this forum makes any difference to the issue. 

Cassandro said:

I suspect Wikipedia will correct editors' over-reactions in time. It usually does.

Time will tell. Experience has revealed that there are people who quite viciously edit Wikipedia in order to reinforce certain viewpoints - often using mainstream media references.

As a researcher of the July 7 bombings I have edited Wikipedia pages to include certain information originating from independent researchers using information sources that would stand up in academic writing or a court of law - such as FOI requests or released CCTV footage - only to find this information wiped and replaced that that which backs up the mainstream media perspective of the event.

Would it be better to think of Asperger as a 'Nazi collaborator' rather than a Nazi, since he wasn't a member of the party?

I suspect Wikipedia will correct editors' over-reactions in time. It usually does. There is no hurry to change terminology - people talk of 'imperial measurements' without agonising over the role of the British Empire in the opium wars, or use 'hung, drawn and quartered' as a joke with little reference to the horror it refers to. (Sorry, rubbish examples - I'm sure other people have better ones.)

You are certainly putting up a big argument on this forum and you have clearly stated that you want the term Asperger syndrome scrapped.

Please also answer my question whether you consider Hans Asperger a Nazi.

I am doing this off my own  bat.  It is always a good idea to contact people who can do something about it rather than argue with people who cannot make any difference.  The facts are important not what I think.  I do not have any inside information about Hans Asperger

David said:

I am not sure who makes the decisions but I am going to try and E Mail famous people in the field.

Are you doing this off your own bat or in collaboration with a wider community?

Also, do you or don't you consider Hans Asperger a Nazi?

As  far as we know Mossad only arrested Adolf Eichmann.   Mossad cannot possibly arrest or kill everybody who was a Nazi.  I am sure Mossad would not have been interested in Asperger as he is accused of killing disabled people not of murdering Jews.  Mossad should have arrested or killed Doctor Mengele as he was known to carry out disgusting experiments on Jewish Children.

It is a difficult problem for the powers that be as Asperger has already been recognised as a Syndrome for over twenty years.  May be they will decide to change its name but still make use of its discovery..  I am not sure who makes the decisions but I am going to try and E Mail famous people in the field.

His Wikipedia page has been updated recently

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Asperger

On 21 April 2018 200.101.35.37 added him to the category of Nazi Physicians.

On 22 April 2018 2603:301d:1003:3100:a242:3fff:fe2d:2d59 added him to the category Austrian ***

These two people are new to Wikipedia and have next to no record of editing articles

On 24 April 2018 Braveheart added him to the category Nazi Eugenics

This person has a long record of editing articles

There is nothing wrong with making references to Herwig Czech's paper on Wikipedia, but categorising Hans Asperger as a Nazi is a very strong move to make.

The big question is Hans Asperger a Nazi or is he not a Nazi?

Does Mossad consider Hans Asperger as a Nazi or not?

What about the NAS? If not are they comfortable with Wikipedia categorising Hans Asperger as a Nazi?

I have thought about proceeds of crime but I will have to consult expert legal advice on the matter for:

1. Whether proceeds of crime applies to the results of research and the rights to be honoured for it.

2. If (1) applies in modern day Britain whether it should also apply to deceased person who carried out their research many decades ago in a nation governed by a hostile dictatorship.

Proceeds of crime might only apply to Hans Asperger's salary and not his research findings or his right to be honoured.

Do you have a personal grievance towards Hans Asperger? Is it even possible to conclude at this point in time that he is a villain and not a hero? It took over 10 years for AS to become mainstream knowledge following the publication of a paper by Lorna Wing in 1981 and further work was carried out in the meantime. In contrast, Hans Asperger has effectively had a trial by media in 10 hours following the publication of a paper by Herwig Czech in 2018.

On an earlier point Mossad would not have bothered to kill or arrest Hans Asperger as he did not kill any Jews.  Mossad would not have wasted a bullet on Hans Asperger.  If Hans Asperger had been prosecuted it would have had nothing to do with Israel and I do not even know if any *** were prosecuted who only killed Disabled people.  If Hans Asperger had been prosecuted he would have only been prosecuted for being complicit in the murders of disabled children as he sent the children to the clinic to be murdered although he did not do it himself.  Another reason he was not prosecuted was because there might not have been enough evidence in his life time.  Just because Hans Asperger was never prosecuted it does not mean they should be a Syndrome named after him.

There is a law in this country which says that one cannot profit from the proceeds of crime.  He committed the crime of sending children to their deaths while he was working with Asperger Children.  The case for removing the Syndrome would be less strong if for example he had murdered his wife or children off duty.  If a scientist committed crimes off duty he might still loose all his  honours but as he did it on the job of making discoveries about  Autistic children the case against Asperger is compelling.  Anyway we have to decide what the powers that be decide to do.