The Autism Deception.

StephenHarris said:

They don't feel like a burden on their family or the state.

In addition, actually having money going in allows you to build up towards a deposit for a place of your own. Still living at home with your mother when you are 30 doesn't do much for your self-esteem.

Of course, that doesn't apply for everyone.

Too right that doesn't apply for everyone!

I lived with my mother until I got pregnant & moved out at 25. I felt I was expected to feel like a burden. My mother & brothers frequently called me a lazy sponger. I was undiagnosed at that time. But all it did was make me feel even more deserving of state benefits, due to the added distress!

Sure I'll never own a home or have holidays even within UK. But I really couldn't give a fig anyway. You can't take property with you when you die. And my daughter prefers to earn her achievements without help from me. 

What I meant was that for many people, getting out of the house and earning a salary can make them feel better. They don't feel like a burden on their family or the state.

In addition, actually having money going in allows you to build up towards a deposit for a place of your own. Still living at home with your mother when you are 30 doesn't do much for your self-esteem.

Of course, that doesn't apply for everyone.

PS Stephen Harris is a very common RL name. I severely doubt any of them would even read this. If the mods want me to change it, I will of course.

recombinantsocks

In your situation you are able to work & feel useful. But that's not how everyone feels. I can't work at all without wanting to die. But I do enjoy raising my child. Yet if the state had been allowed any choice in the mater, it would've prevented her existing. The route I used was anonymous at home internet sperm donation. It was quickly shut down by the state. They falsely claim to have exclusive rights regarding artificial insemination. So in effect they did have a choice after & they've prevented my child having any siblings. The state is cruel & inhumane.

Claire,

Trying to force someone to work, in the way that your mother tried to force your father, is simply wrong. No doubt about that. Some of the things that DWP do are wrong, no doubt about that either. If someone is unable to work then they deserve to be supported by everyone else without feeling guilty. I think we all (myself, SH and all of the others on this forum) all agree on this.

This does not alter the fact that doing useful things may make someone feel better. Bringing up a child, as you do, is undoubtedly useful. I feel useful because I go to work to help produce food for people to enjoy - am I wrong to derive some satisfaction from feeling useful?

According to http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/can says that the word "can" can be "used to express possibility". It also can be used to suggest "ability" as you have interpreted it. It will mean different things in different situations.

If there is doubt about something like this then I think that SH, who used the word in the first place, could perhaps clarify what he meant when he made that statement.

NAS18906 said:

I think that SH meant that earning a salary can possibly help some people in some situations. I don't think that he meant that it is always true. SH should perhaps confirm or deny my interpretation?

In my mind, the word "can" implies possibility but it does not carry any certainty or guarantees.

Work is something that can be miserable or it can be fun. I have totted up 13 jobs in my so-called career. Some of them ended in complete failure - people throwing things, lots of shouting. My current job is actually fun, I enjoy going to work at the moment. If I had known about my autism 40 years ago I would have been better at picking out good jobs and I would have walked out of the bad ones quicker.

'Can' is used to imply physical or mental ability. Hence he was saying it has the ability to definitely. Definitely means without doubt. It's factually incorrect to say that. Many people assume that everyone has potential to experience the same feelings that they do. 

Some people don't have the choice of going to work. They're unable to work. But DWP/ATOS could find anyone technically fit to do some work, even a corpse.

ClaireHig said:

[quote][/quote]

Earning a salary can definitely help though, although it does need to be something you actually enjoy. I'm hoping my novel writing becomes a full-time thing myself.

It's factually incorrect to say it can definitely help.

I think that SH meant that earning a salary can possibly help some people in some situations. I don't think that he meant that it is always true. SH should perhaps confirm or deny my interpretation?

In my mind, the word "can" implies possibility but it does not carry any certainty or guarantees.

Work is something that can be miserable or it can be fun. I have totted up 13 jobs in my so-called career. Some of them ended in complete failure - people throwing things, lots of shouting. My current job is actually fun, I enjoy going to work at the moment. If I had known about my autism 40 years ago I would have been better at picking out good jobs and I would have walked out of the bad ones quicker.

StephenHarris said:

My user name is a pseudonym by the way.

Yes, sorry. I perhaps should have put your username in quotes. My point to longman was that, when that discussion about names was taking place, it was not clear to me that it was a pseudonym. My concern was primarily about you, whoever you are and that you might have caused yourself embarrasment. It then turned out that you might have accidentally caused embarassment to a real Stephen Harris (who may or may not have autism) and that too was best avoided. Up until then, I had never worried about or considered the possibility of the consequences of using a name that might be someone else's real name. In any case, I hope I didn't offend you with my posts on that subject and I am sorry if I did offend.

My user name is a pseudonym by the way.

Longman's ghost to Recombinantsocks.  It is a bit unfair picking
fault with one paragraph of a ghost posting, given most people cannot see the
rest of what I wrote (unless on an email notification), but it is a risk I
have to take.  For those who don't know it I was gagged over a year ago
for standing up to the Mods over the way many adults on the forum were being
treated, so I now cannot post anything political, or indeed anything at all.
The comment you quote refers to a number of posters of late.

I also
ghosted a comparison with going to the gym. People at the gym are there for a
number of reasons - sports injury, post-op, running, rowing and other
athletics work-outs, body building etc. I wouldn't dare criticise anyone's
exercise practises beause I really don't know their backgrounds.  I see
this forum as being the same. It is inappropriate to pick apart people's
posts out of disaagreement with their profile name, their subject matter,
their attitude to their disability, their parents' defects etc.  Also
I'd be wary as an old timer being overly critical of the postings of people
in their teens and twenties.

What it does is it scares people from
coming back on. It is intimidating. They are trying to explain,
sometimes with hardship, their particular difficulties, seeking others with
similar experiences for support, but someone without that sought after
background keeps tearing their postings apart for reasons that have nothing
to do with their main concerns.

It is very difficult for me, being
gagged in this way, to try to alleviate the situation. I have been trying to
get the Mods to deal with it, but getting nowhere. I am very concerned that
the forum is staying in the doldrums because these have become 'shark
infested waters' very toxic for people trying to post,. Despite being badly
treated by NAS my main concern has always been to help others. I am therefore
asking that people might refrain from inapproporiately critcising other
people's posts (even though you see this as me inappropriately criticising
your posts). Longman, though a gag.

Longman,

I'm afraid that I am still not clear. Do you include me in that "number of posters"?

Your comparison with a gym is, I think, perhaps not the best analogy. People come to any forum looking for advice and discussion about the issues that they are facing. People do not go to the gym for that purpose. Offering advice, critiquing other advice, speculation, about wider issues that a poster may not have considered, are all fair game in a discussion forum in my opinion.

You appear to avoid opinions, perhaps for fear of arguments, but you do not avoid criticism of the various bodies such as NAS, government provision for people with autism etc etc. Your posts are therefore, it seems to me, characterised by negativity and impending doom. You have valuable experience and thoughts about our condition that could help others but you seldom seem to profer these.

Sometimes discussions go awry and apologies are appropriate and clarifications are needed but I try to be constructive and sometimes challenging because people sometimes benefit from being challenged (this is one of the core ideas behind CBT).

Turning to a couple of your points:

I picked up on the posters use (or not) of pseudonyms because I was concerned that real names were being used for delicate subjects that were best kep anonymous. This was convern for SH particularly (both the forum member and also for anyone that might be known by that name) Other posters were unaware of the advice to use pseudonyms and I hope that SH didn't take my posts as a criticism.

My posts that introduce the subject of inheritance are not aimed at "parents defects" as you put it. If we are to come to terms with our circumstances then I think it is useful to consider how those circumstances come to pass. I actually think that an understanding of the way that autism is passed on through the genes can actually dispel the blame or guilt that people generally attribute to their parents.

I've seen too much from self diagnosed and low profile diagnosed acting as badly as NTs  telling people in real hardship they are making a fuss about nothing, ought to pull themselves together, stop whingeing, that it is all about having the right attitude etc.

Longman, I feel that you have directed these comments at me. Please pipe up if I have got that wrong?

I find it offensive, annoying, disappointing and sad if that is really what you think I am saying. I know that I sometimes fail to explain things properly (i got grade 6 for my English Language O level at the first attempt!) but I think that you should perhaps be more imaginative and charitable when you are trying to work out what someone is really trying to say in their posts.

StephenHarris said:

Earning a salary can definitely help though, although it does need to be something you actually enjoy. I'm hoping my novel writing becomes a full-time thing myself.

It's factually incorrect to say it can definitely help. In my situation it would actually cause harm. I'm not able to manage money. Earning a salary would be an unhelpful burden. Just having to pay 20% council tax is a huge burden. It's deflating when I get charges on my account because I wasn't even able to manage it. And I can't even get assistance to help me manage my money because DWP took my DLA & severe disablement premium away. This is just a reminder of yet another basic day-to-day thing I can't do.

ClaireHig said:

I hope you're not implying that it takes employment to feel optimism.

Just because you feel success from working it doesn't mean that others will or should. When I was forced to work I felt nothing but miserable, abused & enslaved.

Earning a salary can definitely help though, although it does need to be something you actually enjoy. I'm hoping my novel writing becomes a full-time thing myself.

NAS18906 said:

Dear Claire,

I don't mean to offend but I manage to do that a lot, I am sorry if you feel offended. I actually think that we might agree about the main point of my optimism. I did not mean to say that everyone on benefits is living a miserable life. I was saying that I can imagine that there is a person (probably more than one) on benefits who is having a really miserable friendless, life without any hope. I should not presume that being optimistic amd positive can be a goal for everyone. I imagine that there are people who feel completely unable to feel any optimism.

Am I not allowed to count it as a bit of an achievement to not have to rely on benefits without making everyone on benefits feel resentful? If you have to rely on benefits then that is fine too. Benefits are there for people who need a hand up and I have no problem with people being given a hand up.

I hope you're not implying that it takes employment to feel optimism.

Just because you feel success from working it doesn't mean that others will or should. When I was forced to work I felt nothing but miserable, abused & enslaved.

The state abuses lack of employment to bully & encourage society to bully those with autism. My mother would shame my father in front of his children by calling him a lazy scrounger. The more worthless he felt the more he drank. The more he drank the more he'd lose it & hurt his family. In the end all he had was an empty flat. It took 2 weeks before anyone even knew he'd died

Dear Claire,

I don't mean to offend but I manage to do that a lot, I am sorry if you feel offended. I actually think that we might agree about the main point of my optimism. I did not mean to say that everyone on benefits is living a miserable life. I was saying that I can imagine that there is a person (probably more than one) on benefits who is having a really miserable friendless, life without any hope. I should not presume that being optimistic amd positive can be a goal for everyone. I imagine that there are people who feel completely unable to feel any optimism.

Am I not allowed to count it as a bit of an achievement to not have to rely on benefits without making everyone on benefits feel resentful? If you have to rely on benefits then that is fine too. Benefits are there for people who need a hand up and I have no problem with people being given a hand up.

NAS18906 said:

Firstly, thanks for the compliments, they are appreciated.

I have been reading stuff on this forum for the last 2 years, I have met the others at the post diagnostic group and the local autism support service. I have heard the stories from my own relatives of cruelty, abuse and neglect. I can also see that individual's fortunes are significantly affected by the school that they went to, by their parents' abilities, knowledge and perception (or lack of it). I can see that there are good schools with caring and compassionate teachers and other schools that are frankly poisonous and dangerous to children with autism.

Circumstances can be cruel but people also have choices to change their circumstances, to look up and identify things that can be changed. People's choices are always going to be constrained by resources but choices are there, every single day for people to make their lives different, better in some way or other. People can change their own attitudes and the endings to their own lives. I have seen this happen. In my mind at this moment is one individual in particular who had the worst start in life but was picked out of the bin by the NHS and now has a completely different prospect for the rest of his life. The system can do amazing things but it is human and fallible and patchy and that needs people to campaign for improvements.

People really must be encouraged to make the most of what choices that they can find. For some, this will still leave them with a hard life on benefits at the margins but every small step up can make one feel more satsified and content with life.

Firstly by your own admission you've only seen those on the spectrum able to leave their home. There are plenty of us who can barely function in our own home & don't leave it.

Secondly your idea of success seems pretty skewed. You perceive success along the same lines as the state. To become a work tool. You fail to see the huge success in just living. You seem to attribute failure to those who don't share your ideals. Those who don't wish to create a world for themselves in their own self-centred image. So I guess it would surprise you to know that many who are unemployed & living off benefits such as myself already feel we've achieved success just by existing. I have what truly matters to me & is my true measure of success. A happy life with my child. I'd never give this up to join your rat race.

Your posts are exceptionally rich in personal life experiences and
personal interpretations of what it means to have autism. My point was simply
that, like myself, being very much at the able end, you cannot really
visualise what it is like to have more marked autism traits, Many people
posting on here have very great difficulty day to day with making themselves
understood, or understanding what is going on around them. They have to avoid
many environments because it is painful for them. They really are having
trouble getting jobs and holding them down because others can see they look
different. Their circumstances aren't likely to be made better by having gone
to a good school or having the right attitude, and their parents likely tried
to do everything possible for them.

Firstly, thanks for the compliments, they are appreciated.

I have been reading stuff on this forum for the last 2 years, I have met the others at the post diagnostic group and the local autism support service. I have heard the stories from my own relatives of cruelty, abuse and neglect. I can also see that individual's fortunes are significantly affected by the school that they went to, by their parents' abilities, knowledge and perception (or lack of it). I can see that there are good schools with caring and compassionate teachers and other schools that are frankly poisonous and dangerous to children with autism.

Circumstances can be cruel but people also have choices to change their circumstances, to look up and identify things that can be changed. People's choices are always going to be constrained by resources but choices are there, every single day for people to make their lives different, better in some way or other. People can change their own attitudes and the endings to their own lives. I have seen this happen. In my mind at this moment is one individual in particular who had the worst start in life but was picked out of the bin by the NHS and now has a completely different prospect for the rest of his life. The system can do amazing things but it is human and fallible and patchy and that needs people to campaign for improvements.

People really must be encouraged to make the most of what choices that they can find. For some, this will still leave them with a hard life on benefits at the margins but every small step up can make one feel more satsified and content with life.

longman said:

Your descriptions of life on the autistic spectrum seem, if you'll forgive me, less than mine

Err, no. I don't think you had enough information about my life to make that judgement.

Some of us get royal flushes and some of us have two pairs at best. With my ASD, anxiety, OCD and depression, I feel like I'm a three of a kind...

I can get employment, but I can't seem to find a permanent job.. also, I have never had a girlfriend. With my venlafaxine, it is now taking me nearly an hour to masturbate.

I definitely feel I am in the bottom half of the 'luck' pile and that my ASD is more of a curse than a bonus...

longman said:

It hurts me to see you giving out inappropriate advice all the time as if your experience of autism is valid for everyone else. When I was posting on here I often prefaced my posts saying I'm probably mild and cannot be sure of giving accurate advice. I feel you should exercise similar caution. Lots of people posting on here have very severe difficulties. I am in awe of their pain and their valour.

I don't mean to hurt anyone and I am sorry that you feel hurt. I try to pepper my posts with words like "may have", "it seems to me", "in some cases", "my understanding is", "potentially", "I think that", "I might be mistaken" [I have picked out phrases that I have used in this thread]

I would also observe that I have autism and may not be terribly good at estimating the impact of what I write. Equally, someone with autismm reading this may take it in a very different way to the way I intended it, for example if their thinking is too loaded with "binary-like" thought processes.

In my opinion, there can be no such thing as accurate advice that will work for anyone with autism. The phrase "your mileage may vary" applies to any advice given or accepted on a discussion forum like this and I do not claim to have The Answer, I can only offer my experience and ideas that have worked for me to some extent.

In my opinion: an important aspect of ones happiness with a condition like this is the attitude that you can add to your own individual circumstances and diagnosis etc. I regard autism as one part of me that sits alongside intelligence, determination, education luck, my upbringing and all of the other slings and arrows of fortune. We are dealt a hand of cards but we always have some choice in how we tackle the problems that we face.