Not conforming

Thank you Peter, this is very helpful. I've felt like I've made progress over the last few days in understanding the way my son sees things, not only because of answers here but also through talking with him. 

He has opened up a lot  which I know is hard for him, and he talked about what things are difficult for him.

I suggested joining a site like this as there are lots of people here who will have experienced; and learned how to deal with; similar issues. He didn't want to, but that may change. 

Thank you again x

It can help to think of it less as rudeness and more as bluntness. In the way that children often simply state what they see with out restraint. eg 'mommy why does that women only have half a face' kind of thing. If he keeps describing people as cretins it's not likely to be for 'no reason' but from his point of view they've done something stupid. If it's any help he's probably just as critical of himself. I still refer to stupid errors and me being an 'idiot' when I screw things up. From his point of view stupid actions = stupid people and his threshold for stupid might be quite low if he's a bit of a perfectionist.

There is also the possibility the rude outbursts are 'ticks' if he truly doesn't intend to say them. I know at least one autistic person with a diagnosed 'tick disorder' which they assure me is not Tourettes but has Tourettes like features. However autistic people in general its not that they have a compulsion to say something rude but that they are unaware they are saying anything rude at all.

With regards to school / collage I'm afraid they may just have to accept overlooking, or at least responding more softly, to such outbursts as a reasonable adjustment.

Simple things, like calling people names, stupid, cretin, etc, you might explain to him always tend to cause offence. But more complex 'rude' behaviour may be things those around him like his father simply learn to tolerate and part of the solution might be helping him to educate others about how autism effects him.

Ceri said:

If asked to do something he doesn't want to do he is just very rude which I tend to ignore

Is it 'doesn't want to do' or things that to him seem irrational or unfair? Autistic people can be argumentative. Using phases like 'because i say so' can trigger a reaction of logical incredulity as if you'd just told someone the sky was green. Faced with an absurd demand backed up with an irrational reason walking away doesn't seem so unnatural. So the question I would ask is does he view these requests as absurd and the reasons given as irrational?

Ceri said:

although we've tried things like apps to schedule task/reminders he  forgets to use them.

I tend to avoid 'reminders' and use hard and fast appointments. If there is something important I need to do I tend to fix a time in the calendar to do it so my phone will beep when its time. If I can't do it literally right then I'll reschedule it even if its just putting it back by an hour.

Thank you Peter. He's good with computers but although we've tried things like apps to schedule task/reminders he  forgets to use them. 

I can be very disorganised too, so am not the best person to help him stay on top of things! 

His never makes unreasonable demands, he hardly asks for anything - the problems arise when he has to interact with anyone. If asked to do something he doesn't want to do he is just very rude which I tend to ignore, but my husband and parents; and previously lecturers in college; are offended by and get annoyed with him/take his electronic devices away/exclude from college etc.

I don't think he can help it, sometimes he will say something rude without any obvious trigger at all and he has said he doesn't know why he does it. He also has echolalia and palilalia so maybe it's related?

He doesn't want to hurt people's feelings. He gets disproportionately upset if he thinks he has upset me, so I ignore any insults and this is actually the quickest way to diffuse the situation.

Unfortunately society at large doesn't ignore someone loudly telling them they are a cretin for no reason at all! He has lost online friends through this behaviour too, which has upset him but he can't seem to moderate it  

It's a training provider called Sgiliau (Welsh for 'Skills' 

Thank you, this is so helpful as he does really want to release his music - albeit without being in the public eye at all  - it's the only thing he's ever said he wants to do. 

Advice from someone in the music industry will mean a lot more to him than my opinions! I'll definitely suggest the demo, although one of the facilitators/tutors at the training provider did his degree in electronic music production and hopefully is telling him the same thing! 

Thank you so much, and yes it can be so hard to get the right support in education. We got lucky with both primary and secondary school - we didn't realise how lucky until college. 

My son did surprise me one time by spontaneously deciding to wash his hair (its very long and curly as he gets anxious getting it cut). He'd noticed that it was greasy and felt disgusting! I was so happy. At the time I'd given up trying to ask him to wash it as I couldn't deal with the verbal outbursts, and I did shed some (happy) tears in secret!

Have you tried not prompting your son with one thing (eg hair) to see how he manages? 

Thank you for helping me feel supported in this  and much love to your family too xx

In terms of non conformist behaviour I think you’re doomed to failure. However more spicificly if he’s doing things regularly that have a strong negative efect on others. Like say making unreasonable demands and causing problems when they are not met. Well you might be able to moderate that behaviour by helping him understand, interpreting for want of a better word, the effect of very specific things he does on others. 

as for getting him to join in that will require a) finding a place that speaks to his emotional needs and b) showing him engaging with it wouldn’t be hopeless.

also with regards to executive function. Eg remembering things, time management etc. How is he with computers.

my executive functioning got a lot better when I started having PDAs and smartphones do the parts I was bad at for me.

By the way, who is the Skill Programme company? Autistic individuals need to focus on their craft, we can be incredibly specialised and this is not new knowledge. I don't know any field specialist who doesn't have an Admin or some help with this side. This doesn't mean being completely blind to the economics and structure which help a thing operate in modern capitalistic societies. I'd suggest to this company you want him hyper focused on his skills. Once he's proficient at a thing he'll WANT to engage with the external admin to be able to operate more fluidly. But that's secondary. He's 18. I'm in my late 40s. I did not embody any admin when starting, it is slowly embraced as and when we are moving up in our field. 

I work in music. It will become a "necessary evil" for him to do some admin work that we are all terrible at. BUT - CV writing IS silly. It's rarely necessary. I never send out a CV, I send a Demo Reel. Today you fill in a CV form online and then if you wish also upload. It's redundant and a waste of time - in the music industry. 

What he'll need to know is metadata and admin for economics: performing royalty organisation admin for example. 

But if he wants to get work at a studio or get a call to audition to work in sound for a video game company, he needs to clean up his Aesthetics. He needs to practice having a set ideal 'wardrobe" because being presentable IS a matter of RESPECTFULNESS. There is nothing like being lazy with cleanliness and personal aesthetic to communicate one is Lazy and Haphazard with work.

This is worth exploration and it is of grave importance. He needs to understand the importance of Creating Sensory Aesthetic, just like a perfumer with chemistry, like a designer with a table of fabric or a musician in a studio. We do not cut corners or neglect one element of how we impact others regardless of whether we think they notice, and they will. A well tailored, clean-shaven artist who is socially awkward is afforded the Assumption of Providing kindness and respect: he put the Effort in. Therefore his social weirdness is then overlooked and reconstructed as charming. This is the way the world works. And there is a great deal of Philosophy to back this up. Kant wrote the Critique of Judgement, which is worth buying him next time there is an argument. This is all you need for a response. (summary - https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-aesthetics/) But I'd buy him the book so can argue with Philosophical Giants in history instead.

Creating aesthetic is a lifestyle and I've yet to meet an Autistic who, once introduced to the cut of geometry, the smoothness of a crease, the blank slate of a clean table, does not discover this is who they have desired to be all along. My walls are clean, my kitchen is detailed. I do not create when my desk is a mess, not on principle, but my Autistic Head is in Chaos. My surroundings must to be In Order. 

Good luck! 

Yes - a recording studio is not an easy thing to access is it?! So that’s something good to hold onto if he can. Have you heard the music he’s creating? That’s such a wonderful thing to be doing. My sons college was good but we couldn’t get them to provide the specialist support he needed. My son also would not wash or clean his teeth if we didn’t prompt him - he just doesn’t seem to care about that. If we weren’t here I don’t think he’d do it. Although part of me isn’t sure - maybe he would?! I sometimes think it’s so easy to underestimate our own children - even when they become adults.

Anyway -  I can see from how willing you are to listen to others on here that you are doing all you can to support your son - and all credit to you for that. I’m sorry that your husband and parents aren’t working more with you to support your son - because it’s a lot to be trying to work all these things out without support at home. I’m sure you and your son will work things out - you’re doing a great job - sending love and solidarity to you and your son x 

Thank you. He turned 18 last month and I have trouble remembering that he is an adult, particularly as he seems young for his age.

I am trying to hold on to the placement for him because this is the most understanding environment he has been in since college. The tutors accept him as he is - I have not had a single phone call asking me to pick him up for being disruptive  (weekly occurrence at college) and they have such positive things to say about him.  Plus where else would he get to play around in a recording studio all day? :) 

When I say I try to persuade him, I mean I list all the positives of going. They also pay him £10 for every day he goes and part of his travel expenses! 

I don't nag about the personal hygiene  but i worry he will be targeted for it outside the home.

Yes, I know, I need to stop trying to control things! And I need to hear this. 

Thank you again, I really appreciate that you (and everyone who replied) have been so helpful. It is such a relief to enter a supportive and understanding forum. My parents and husband are not so understanding (husband also on the spectrum but everything is 'black and white' to him and he cannot empathise very easily - this is a whole other post though!)

I hope you don’t mind me saying this (I say it with respect and I know you love your son) but it’s important to remember that your son is 18 and an adult. As parents we have to make that shift and acknowledge that even though our children may have many challenges when they reach adulthood we have to respect their autonomy. It’s your sons choice whether or not he goes to college, or washes etc. It’s so important to respect that and to make it clear to him that you recognise that he is an adult now and that you completely respect his right to make decisions about his own life. 
when you say ‘I have to persuade him to go to the programme’ I think maybe that’s not the best way to go. You can express your thoughts on the issue but if you respect him you’ll make it clear to him that he has the right to choose what he feels is best for him. He might make mistakes but he will learn from his mistakes I’m sure. But he needs to know that you recognise he is an adult who can make choices for himself. 
I understand your concerns of course.  But you’ll be there for him if he encounters any problems like that. 

Thank you for taking the time to answer me so thoroughly, and for including so much information. I couldn't reply sooner as I had to take my daughter to athletics, but when I got home I gave my son a big hug and told him I was proud of him, and i reread what you wrote. 

You are so right: it isn't fair to expect him to operate in society as innately as someone who is neurotypical, and yes despite my best intentions that is kind of what i had been expecting. 

I worry that I've been putting pressure on him to engage with education and training when he struggles so much with it. To be fair the skills programme he is on now just allow him to make music in their recording studio all day and occasionally get him to do an activity like writing CVs (which he complains about and doesn't see the point of).

I have to persuade him to go to the programme  at the moment though as he is starting to resent the non music-related content. So do i keep making him go or am I convincing myself its a good thing for him to do because I'm thinking in terms of what a neurotypical person (or maybe just me) would want?

I need to accept that maybe he doesn't need social interaction to feel happy, maybe he doesn't care if he never works, and maybe being clean and smelling nice just doesn't matter to him either. 

The only problem is that so many in society are scared or unaccepting of difference. When his behaviours haven't conformed in the past it has made him vulnerable to ridicule/mockery, and even  assault (ie the verbally lashing out at people has made then retaliate in the past, including him getting punched in the face on the school bus). My fear is that he will be targeted for not conforming. I think that's where my worries are coming from  - wanting to keep him safe from people who don't understand him.

I know I have a lot to learn, I will try the approach you suggested.

Also, what you said about your friends gives me hope.

Thank you for this xx

Juniper I love every single word that you have written here! Solidarity and respect to you - and love to you and your family

I agree! And it's hard as a parent not to ever feel remorse for the slightest harm we've caused. In my own relationships with my parents, it's so easy to allow them their human faults - to forgive and then completely forget when they make an effort to either change or simply apply kindness, humility and respect. 

The lovely thing with happiness is that it's never achieved. And maybe you mean a feeling of contentedness or a feeling of hopefulness. There is something to finding out my purpose and who I am and curating my life with agency. If I can help my son learn to think critically and to evaluate wisely and give him the fundamental building blocks to design and 'architect' a life he desires, then I've done one part of the first job as a parent. But I don't believe our job comes to an end. If anything it shifts form. We should always seek to be more wise, to work out what lies ahead, so when they hit these bumps in their own journey they can always seek guidance. If we can clear a path, they learn to widen it for their children and so on. Some of us didn't get the best start but there is always a time to start. That seizing the element of redemption and making it so, is really crucial for any parent! If not now, when? :) 

I wish my son could meet your son! It always makes me sad that so many autistic people are so isolated - when perhaps if they got together they could be a great support to each other. They are far from alone - but often don’t feel that way. I’ve found this community on here to be incredibly supportive, friendly and so full of great ideas. So keen to help others too. 
Your love for your son shines out - just knowing that you are 100% there for him unconditionally will mean so much to him - even if he doesn’t show it I’m sure he knows that. We all need that - to know that someone is 100% on our side - no matter what happens. We have to be that person for our children - no matter how hard life gets. They have to know that we don’t judge them, no matter what they do or don’t do. 
They might struggle out there in the world (this very dysfunctional and often harsh and unforgiving world) - but they need to know that there is nothing WRONG with them, they are wonderful, valued people and they are loved. Just because they don’t ‘fit’ with many of the demands society places upon them does not mean that they are ‘broken’ - it’s not their ‘fault’. Your son might not ‘thrive’ in the conventional sense of the word - he just needs to find his own way, his own route to a life he can enjoy. 

Hello Juniper - I’ve been very moved by what you’ve written here. We shouldn’t try to bend ourselves or our children into a shape that we are not meant to be. We need to intuitively connect to what our children really need and want - and gently walk towards that with them. We live in a deeply dysfunctional society that isn’t even healthy for the majority of people - let alone neurodiverse people. We and our children have a right to live our lives in a way that gives us peace and makes us happy. It’s an incredibly difficult thing to achieve - but we just have to try. I feel like a failure as a mother most of the time - because all I want is for my children to be happy - and as autistic people they are often quite unhappy - because the world we live in is quite a hostile place for them. School alone is a terrible environment for most autistic children. It significantly harmed my youngest son  - and I feel so guilty that I kept taking him to a place that was not good for him. I didn’t know any better. 
Our children aren’t broken - but our society is. The priorities are all wrong, the wrong things are valued, it’s competitive and cruel and stupid. Our children deserve better. Because it’s such a damn mess we can only be there for them let them be in no doubt that they are loved and valued, and hope to god that they find love in this world when we are gone. 

Thank you so much! It sounds as though our circumstances have a lot in common and it's reassuring to hear from somebody who knows what it's like :) 

Your son is very lucky to have you. 

All I really want is for my son to be happy. Whatever he does with his life, if it makes him happy (and harms nobody) then that will be a great result for us. The trouble is that he isn't happy right now, and as he becomes more aware of his  limitations he is becoming more unhappy and doubtful of his own abilities.

He has some wonderful qualities and can be great company and very funny. He is difficult but has always been unconventional from day one, but I'm proud of what he has overcome so far

I love him unconditionally so much, and maybe that's he most important thing right now,: To just be there until we know what to do

Thank you again xx

Thank you Jamie, that's given me a lot to think about, although more to worry about too! (I am a worrier by nature so not your fault) 

I think a mentoring scheme might be very helpful actually, once he overcame his anxiety around talking to other people. It would be great if he could talk to other autistic people who maybe understand what he struggles with and have name found their own ways around things.  He wants friends but tends to drive them away as he can be rude.

I'm definitely going to go away and look into what else there is in our local area - maybe there is a mentoring scheme I haven't heard about yet! 

Thansk for taking the time to reply to me 

As a mother (who is on the Spectrum) of a 25 year old with dyslexia who only started thriving 3 years ago, I'm going to suggest first to re-examine the problem by asking a different question. The Autism Spectrum is so different from how NeuroTypical individuals thrive, that in order to figure out how to make that happen, one needs to completely reframe their thinking.

Here's and analogy to what I hear you saying: How do I make this tropical plant grow (conform) in Greenland as if it is native.

First, much of the pomp and drama in society IS pointless. It's tribal behaviour, it's a suffocating echo chamber, it has an ability to become corrupted and fascist. It's theatrics with misuse of pragmatics. At one extreme, conforming at any given time in history might mean being on the wrong side of history. Therefore, for an Autistic, it is fundamentally important to Prioritise. Shift focus to crucially important elements.  Change the question. How sick is society and what can I bother with in order to be an active part of it. What do I enjoy about society that I can learn basic rules to engage with. Who am I as a human and How can I find purpose. How can I function and thrive in this environment? What do I need to become a person I admire (and this may take time for your son to develop what he truly admires). These questions are philosophical, they are reasonable, and for someone who is autistic, they involve finding key principles in order to navigate. Principles of social engagement will always remain conscious and I will need to make an effort to recollect them, unlike my NeuroTypical peers.

For a more in-depth understanding, here are a few articles: 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/everyday-neurodiversity/202108/are-we-giving-autistic-children-ptsd-school?fbclid=IwAR0e6pwWeDC7C0c3EJAE1qdd9PyMyCqkgwIvTDEIxPKGBOV7Qn9hrgN5kI8

https://autcollab.org/2020/04/30/autism-the-cultural-immune-system-of-human-societies/?fbclid=IwAR37xumHkRga0hADICA80wxaWycn7_Kr9Oc6uZhcs2zJ0QzamXOI4qwU2bQ 

I hear you asking for advice about how to help him operate in society as innately as someone who is NeuroTypical. That won't ever happen. However, while asking this, I have absolutely no idea about what his interests are, what his Myers Briggs personality type is, what he does when he's bored or even what kind of games he might play. Does he enjoy camping? Could he head to a summer camp with autistic individuals? Have you hunted down workshops for courses that might spark his interest? Wood working or coding or Glass blowing or foraging? 

Because the world expects to be able to navigate in NT ways, Autistics need to master one skill at a time. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jan/18/modern-world-bad-for-brain-daniel-j-levitin-organized-mind-information-overload 

It's imperative we are allowed to finish one task at a time, spend time engaging with a technique, not force a thing or cut a process short. 

However, it is Absolutely crucial that Ethics and Principles are fundamental. We can then take on other tasks. Rules of being and being a grounded human. I had friends who were able to focus on their quality of being - they were not forced into the workplace at 15, they were not in survival mode. They weren't wealthy, but their parents helped to allow them to focus on learning how to master their craft. They were able to focus on studying. They weren't malnourished. They were able to focus. 20 years later, these are well adjusted humans with good jobs and much less chaotic lives. I personally do not make much, but I have found that as I've persued grounding morals, learning mindfulness, understanding how to have healthy relationships, my son has simply started to mirror these and I've been able to help him become a human who, as priority, is more emotionally and psychologically grounded. Whatever the difficulty in life, individuals will give their left arm to help someone who is kind, generous, considerate, if even terribly clumsy with socialising. 

As for... getting dressed. It may mean becoming more involved, still treating him with respect, grace and dignity, while doing things for him you might have done when he was little and acting like it's completely normal until a thing becomes habitual or he grows to enjoy it. Here's the catch: just be the mum. Life is so short. Enjoy every little thing he allows you to do for him - we are all still that little human we were born, wonderful and imaginative and excited about the world. But this sad overwhelming realty knocked us over and for some, it's so daunting and horrible, we might appear to be 'alive' but in our inner selves it's like being locked in a dark room. My goal has always been to help until I'm asked not to. Not ruin, or coddle or allow bad ethics, but Help. Sometimes it means Directly saying I'd like you to help me with the laundry. Don't tell him you have a whole plan on how to slowly over the course of 2 months teach him about the art of using bleach, or the perfect measurements to detergent or precision with creases that would make a butler drop his jaw. Make a secret plan. Then treat each little engaging technique like you just happened to think of it. And always give him a good amount of heads up.  Maybe buy 8 new t shirts and allow him to throw out the old ones when he's ready. But don't just buy any shirt. Find 100% cotton. Find something to aesthetically engage with, that feels nice and looks nice to wear. A new one is tried on, it feel like pure soft cotton, it's aesthetically cut, outside, people respond better because being put together is a social kindness. These things have their own timing and process. Allow for that and make absolutely no deal about it. But just like any principle or ethic or craft, use an intentionality. Every thing you overcome as a human being, every bettering of the self, children naturally respect and tend to follow.