If pro-independence parties win tomorrow

It wasn’t a criticism it simply because London is an economic capital. It makes sense to stay unified as an island nation (I think we still are) and off mainland Europe.

I think reform are dangerous for the country (uk) for the kind of people they attract. Scotland and Wales having national parties in power makes sense- most of us do not want an English nationalist party in power in England though.  

Voting in London the outcome is nearly always the same if you do or not. 

London sucks all the energy from the rest of the Britain, I think it's unfair to say Wales and Scotland dont' bring anything to the party, we're not given a chance too, nor for that matter are many parts of England.

From what I remember the Scotland indie ref was before brexit was ever a thing, in fact many Scots voted against independence because they were told that it was guaranteed that they'd stay in the EU and not have apply as a seperate country, thats why so many Scots felt betrayed.

Still I'm just glad that reform didn't get in here, plaid have a small majority, with reform 2nd but without enough support to do much damage, I hope.

Anglocentric but really Londoncentric thinking is the problem, all the business, money development gravitates around London. Scotland and Wales are beautiful countries but don’t bring anything to the party and so have nothing to lose, Scotland calling a referendum was an bad call before Brexit, it showed that they required their position with England for leverage.

I'm sure you would, which would cause more trouble in all countries that have devolved assemblies and governments

Abolish the devolved assembly's and fully restore Parliamentary sovereignty. Simple as that. 

Here is an hour by hour results timeline

pa.media/.../

It's why I said that I think some sort of federalisation of the UK would be better, with the House of Commons being turned into the English parliament and a reformed and elected second chamber focussing on things of joint importance, like national security, foreign policy and major cross boarder infrastructure. 

I do think the case for more regional devolution in Egland is becomeing overwhelming, elected mayors are good, but I'm not sure they have enough power to do anything but tinker around the edges. GBS's point about Wales having things like wind turbines foisted on it, is a good one, there are still memories of a whole vally and village that was sunk to make a reservoir for Liverpool around this part of Wales. Thing is I'm not sure that some English regions aren't treated with similar contempt for local feelings. Obviously something like a wind farm will always be contravercial, but it's something we have to deal with as we do really need to move away from fosil fuels. I think it would help if the people living in areas with this sort of infrastructure actually benefitted from it with lower bills or something? Taking Orkney as an example they generate a huge amount of  renewable energy, but dont' behefit from it, they have higher bills because of where they are and many are in fuel poverty, reliant on LPG and oil for heating, theres no gas places like like that, it's to expensive to lay pipes. Such places are also more likely to suffer from power cuts because of overhead power lines.

I think Plaid want some leverage in Westminster as theres a need for a fairer settlement for Wales, as you say so many people retire here which is great whilst they're fit and active, but it's so hard when people get older and show the ailments of old age, elderly services are under pressure everywhere, but it's even more acute when so many people have no family nearby to help out with things like getting to medical appointments, theres a problem getting enough carers both for homes and in the community, the distances for community carers to travel can be huge and the pay dosent' in any way compensate for the cost of a reliable vehicle, travel expenses or anything. Our hospitals and can get easily overwhelmed by the number of people who can't go home because home isn't suitable and there;s no one to look after them. I know this isn't just a Welsh problem, but it does become more noticable when you have such a high number of retirerees and a low number of working age people 

There is a huge English retirement to Wales, and maybe Scotland too. That kind of slurs the figures. What may have been taxed and earnt in England then gets funded through Wales. I think to be fair England should pay retirement and benefits for people who spent most of their life earning and living in England. I don’t see that as an easy thing to resolve.

as someone who lived and worked in England the lack of opportunities and business in Wales, even in the South, is very marked.many in Wales want to continue life pretty much as their parents did. I live in a rural area, the county of Powys, where small farms dominate. My game is the Welsh here wan5 to continue a traditional life. Building of wealth comes after culture, community and enjoyment of a simpler life. But costs have escalated and the job market and property is harsh across the board. The idea of having a hom3 as a pension vehicle isn’t that common outside the South of England yet it drives property prices up across the UK. People understandably look at Wales as a retirement destination and second homes make it very difficult if not impossible for locals.

i didn’t think Wales wants leverage in Westminster if a federation and a suitable agreement. Wakes and Scotland targeted Westminster as that’s still currently the location of leverage. 

I was not trying to be contentious. I supported Brexit for a number of reasons. The desire to be self-governed is reasonable. But there are practicalities. And the English regions dislike having no voice as much as everyone else in a London centric system.

People can be self governing if they want. But that normally means control of tax and ability to issue debt. If that happens then there are issues of currency since England won't underwrite another country's debt.

You then have the budget to consider. Scotland is running a 11.6% deficit, including a geographic share of oil revenue. 3% is the max sustainable level considered by the EU. The UK is at 5.1%, similar to France but below the US. 11% is not going to work. 

Wales is harder to get a good feeling for without spending lots of time. A lot depends on what the UK would agree to continue paying for, like pension liabilities. But it may be more sustainable than I thought. However there is no reason to expect England would accept all the liabilities for the UK. [Edit: removed dodgy stats. It needs more time to get good ones.]

The economic issues are not trivial but are often ignored. People may want independence, but not worse hospitals or lower benefits etc.

The UK got away with leaving the EU as it is big enough, it was forecast to be c. 2% hit, which is a reasonable recession. Not fun but survivable.

If there were to be a federal UK instead, then there would be an English Parliament. But England gas 85% of the GDP of the UK, do it would unavoidably unbalanced.

The other countries could end up with less influence. Scotland is significantly overrepresented in the House of Commons at the moment for example. In a federal parliament it would likely have less.

There are real economic and political problems, as well as long term liability issues.  Anything that has been together for centuries is hard to separate. It is possible of course, but not without more consequences than politicians would admit. I

You also have the issue of where investment would go. You could have a race to the bottom on business rates and taxes, to dissuade investment from going to England, but that would be even worse if you want to maintain the current size of the state.

If people really want this, then there should be an honest debate. Emotions are fine, but economics dictate whether it works in practice. 

goesbysteve said:

I’m glad people are looking around at other sources.

I usually put the flyers straight into recycling. 

This one was very different to usual though as it was fully aimed at keeping Reform at bay with the added bonus (to them not me) of course of getting the Tories back in ️

My mistake then. It must have been the way I read it. I’m glad people are looking around at other sources.

I think that sort of punishing attitude says it all about why so many people want to work towards independence, Wales has had its natural resourses stripped and then abandoned, along with many areas in the English Midlands and North East.Wales has had nowhere near the investment from Westminster needed to attract jobs, we have lots of low paid, insecure, seasonal work, people can't afford to live here long term. Second homes create havoc in the local economy, you can get a two or three up terrace reasonably cheaply in places you wouldn't really want to live, but many of the next stage up houses are unaffordable, the jump is massive. 

I'm not a Welsh speaker, I'm very poor with languages, although I can understand a bit, it is off putting when you walk into a shop and people switch language, it does feel as though it's aimed at you personally, but it's probably not. There's a lot of hostility towards Britains minority languages, anyone remember some Welsh people being thrown out of a shop in southern England because they were speaking Welsh to each other? Would that same shop keeper, have told anyone else to leave for speaking their native language. For many everyday life is conducted in their native language

I've noticed that some people have thought of the break up of the UK as total seperation, rather than a reformation in a new and fairer way. I noticed this during the Scotish referendum debate, there was so much anger, spite and hatred displayed by English politicians and the public about it. There's also an assumption that every newly independent country would want to rejoin the EU, some do, some don't, and of course theres the question of would they want us or would the terms of our entry be so onerous as to make us less independent than we want to be?

goesbysteve said:

So I wouldn’t go believing what they say on a flyer. 

I'm not.

I read the figures recently on a polling site added to which I live in a previously 'true blue' area.

I also have no other choice as there are none of the usual options other than not voting which is what I have decided to do.

I think that the Scottish and Welsh people have different feelings regarding the union than the English do. Scotland has a robust economy that could be boosted through being able to make their own decisions. There is a wealth of natural resources that have been pillaged for decades. It seems to me that this is a untied Kingdom only in name rather than of equal parts. This model disenfranchises a lot of people.

Lets face it people only want democracy and to be able to make their own decisions. Look at the UK England centric economy and what a mess it has been for decades.

Also there is a strong view that the other nations are viewed as mere regions of England.

If people want to vote against the UK system then I say let them.

On the point of currency I used to suggest the Irn Bru bottle as you used to get a deposit back on the empty glass bottles. Now I know a few folks in my youth that used them to pay for things   

All the parties are saying the same thing though. All using slightly different statistics and counting of potential votes. So I wouldn’t go believing what they say on a flyer. 

You are thinking about it the wrong way. I don’t think anyone seeking independence is thinking it would lead to people being better off. It’s about making our own decisions. For better or worse.

I think Wales and Scotland would be happy having the clout of those countries you mentioned. We don’t really have any as it stands anyway. I also think England isn’t as important in the modern world as it thinks. 

I’m sorry you had a bad time, it’s a tense time and a tense world. People react strangely sometimes. It’s also not the rule as I’m English in Wales, I speak enough Welsh but I’m no where near fluent. Other than a local councillor I’ve had nothing but acceptance and warmth.

However, think of it like this,  is that different from going to Spain and people around you talking in Spanish? There definitely seems to be a view it’s part of the UK so the same sense doesn’t apply.

I’m in Wales. I think Wales gets a very unfair treatment from both Westminster and Cardiff. If you want to build wind farms here to power the Midlands, no problem go ahead. Wouldn’t happen in Surrey. Yes we may get more wind on average, but why nit solar for Surrey, surely that makes sense? Especially when it’s foreign companies building the wind farms, then getting paid to switch them off as our national grid can’t cope with the power generated to get it to where it’s needed, the South, anyway. This is similar to Scotland too. Could it be that labs here can be bought or rented for less? NIMBY?

Very close to where I live is a nature reserve on high land that has a plan to build the UKs tallest turbines. 3 times the height of normal ones, with blades longer than a 747. If Reform get in they’ll approve it and overrule local council planning permissions, Labour did this before on not burying power cables but building masts across open countryside, despite a hung vote. This won’t bring in local jobs and ecological will be a disaster as a new heavy access road will be needed and massive amounts of concrete that will be impossible to remove (company won’t pay for it). The local community “discussions” held had a representative saying they’d bring it all in by helicopter. Clearly speaking out of her *** as the only helicopter powerful enough is in Russia.

if it takes Independence or serious discussions around it with better economic support for Wales to force that to happen then I know where I’ll be voting.

Before anyone calls me a Nationalist I’m actually English. Not that I have any pride left in that.

sorry rant over.

emanningis said:

Either way, Good luck :-) 

Interesting. 

Thank you. 

You too.

I once heard, that even when both options are bad, I should vote less evil, then at least we are not maximising evil (but not those without any chance, imho, which makes no difference).

Either way, Good luck :-)