Is Santa silly?

...and there was me thinking this thread was about a myth being told as a lie, rather than a religious discussion...

Still a deafening silence from people who follow a religion other than Christianity. We can't have an impartial and unbiased discussion without some of them contributing.

I think there is quite a lot of truth in the criticism levelled at the NAS in that it has very few people in their ranks who really understand other religions and cultural practices surrounding them.

Arran said:

I can see a big difference between religious beliefs from centuries ago (even if they are scientifically proven to be untrue) and innovations from more recent times that are outright lies.

A nice succinct summary of that difference would be most welcome.

For my argument, I present the following as an example of what I say:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/we-question-therefore-we-live/201112/santa-claus-and-jesus-transitional-objects-0

Santa Claus and Jesus as Transitional Objects

Paull said:

Also if you cannot offer your own words to the debate and just keep on copying and pasting things from other sources then what does that tell people about your own level of wisdom.

Clearly you have no awareness of the saying "stood on the shoulders of giants".  How do you think anyone got anywhere without learning from the information of others pray tell?

If you seriously think that quoting others shows unintelligence then there is less hope for you than I thought before (and that was barely any!).  Every scientist who cites other sources must be such dimwits by your logic.

I surmise it says a lot more for my intelligence that I am both humble and enquiring enough to seek sources of wisdom from others, than that of someone who glaringly and pointedly ignores parts of posts that he cannot answer and cherry picks to repeat the same tired (and incorrect) sentences whilst ignoring every source of information presented to him.

IntenseWorld said:

So when other religions celebrate mythical events or characters we should take the same stance you have taken?

This is not the time or the place for the discussion of deep theological issues but I can see a big difference between religious beliefs from centuries ago (even if they are scientifically proven to be untrue) and innovations from more recent times that are outright lies. Christmas, and the Santa lie associated with it, is pervasive in Britain and is followed by millions of people who are atheist or only weakly Christian. It is effectively part of British popular culture rather than religion. Therefore it could be argued that anybody who chooses to state the true facts is verging on heresy or is unBritish.

If people who follow a religion other than Christianity try to thrust their beliefs or practices on the masses then it results in ill feelings with the potential for outrage. This has happened recently with Muslims under the banner of "Islamisation of Britain" such as when schools decide to close down for Eid-ul-Fitra or hold assembly plays based on Islamic stories and events. If a Muslim teacher told the story of the Islamic birth of Jesus as described in the Qu'ran shortly before Christmas in a primary school dominated by white British and (mostly notional) Christian children then their parents will be incensed by such behaviour. Even atheist parents are likely to consider it creeping sharia via the back door rather than religious nonsense.

Well that one was long since blown out of the water.  Tony Attwood for one, talks about some children with Asperger's living in an extreme fantasy world.

I have been accused many times of having a mind corrupted by mythology, fantasy, and conspiracy theories by those of a more rational mindset. One particularly notable example was an obsession I had with the Mysterious Cities of Gold when in primary school. Mythology and fantasy is one thing but lies are another.

Quote > So why didn't it scar me or others in this thread, this monumental lie that we were hoodwinked with for years?

I have already told you why, please read other peoples contributions.

Smoking is bad for you - but nobody is going to become permanently ill after one cigarette.

One lie is not going to scar anybody, Nowhere did I say this lie alone is going to damage or harm anyone, but it will without question interfere with any childs rational thinking, too many lies will put the child into overload.

Telling a child one lie is just like giving a child one cigarette.

Saying that the lie does children no harm is like saying you've just given a child a cigarette and they haven't got cancer so it can't be bad for them.

Also if you cannot offer your own words to the debate and just keep on copying and pasting things from other sources then what does that tell people about your own level of wisdom.

Well that one was long since blown out of the water.  Tony Attwood for one, talks about some children with Asperger's living in an extreme fantasy world.

I think it's the lack of "social imagination" being confused with "imagination" that has led to such erroneous assumptions.

Yes, all those Trekkies that are on the spectrum...they will be scarred when they realise they have been going to conferences for years for something that isn't real.

Ah, which brings us back to that old cookie - the triad of Impairments - people on the spectrum LACK IMAGINATION.

So Santa has given us a chance for a poll. How many people on the spectrum believed in santa at sometime, believed in fairies and elves or any other children's stories, enjoyed children's stories, like living in fantasy.......?

Because according to the psychiatrists and psychologists, none of us should have shown the slightest interest in imaginary worlds as children......

nor for that matter believed in Dr Who or Data as adults!

...and just for good measure:

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/12/14/santa.christmas.kids/

"By 8 or 9, most children know the jig is up, development experts said. But the crafty kids feign belief in Santa hoping their enthusiasm will be rewarded in the form of Christmas presents.

"Kids are smart," said Charles Smith, a Kansas State University expert in child development. "They realize he's not real even before parents think they understand that."

"The realization for kids comes gradually, rather than through one defining moment, said Slotterback, who conducted a survey of college students about their family memories of Santa Claus."

"Slotterback, professor of psychology at the University of Scranton in Pennsylvania, said believing in Santa is not damaging.

"Researchers show that children who participate in fantasy-type play tend to do better and advance cognitively. It's not a harmful thing," she said."

So why didn't it scar me or others in this thread, this monumental lie that we were hoodwinked with for years?

As you clearly did not read the link I posted in #13 (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703344704574610002061841322) here is some information from it:

The Power of Magical Thinking

Research Shows the Importance of Imagination in Children's Cognitive Development

For years, imagination was thought of as a way for children to escape from reality, and once they reached a certain age, it was believed they would push fantasy aside and deal with the real world. But, increasingly, child-development experts are recognizing the importance of imagination and the role it plays in understanding reality. Imagination is necessary for learning about people and events we don't directly experience, such as history or events on the other side of the world. For young kids, it allows them to ponder the future, such as what they want to do when they grow up.

What Should Parents Do?

It is important but not necessary for parents to encourage fantasy play in their children, says Dr. Woolley. If the child already has an imaginary friend, for instance, parents should follow their children's lead and offer encouragement if they are comfortable doing so, she says. Similarly, with Santa, if a child seems excited by the idea, parents can encourage it. But if parents choose not to introduce or encourage the belief in fictitious characters, they should look for other ways to encourage their children's imaginations, such as by playing dress-up or reading fiction.

If a child asks if the Tooth Fairy or Santa is real, parents might want to assess their child's level of doubt. If the doubts appear strong then the child might be ready and it is time for the truth. Ideally, the child will find out for him or herself, like a little scientist, so parents might ask, "Is there something you saw or heard that makes you think Santa isn't real?" and "What do you think?"

You will note, that nowhere does it equate magical thinking with lies, nowhere does it state children are being scarred by the Santa myth.

Notice how you artfully didn't mention the part where I (and others posted further up) was not scarred.

Smoking is bad for you - but nobody is going to become permanently ill after one cigarette.

One lie is not going to scar anybody, Nowhere did I say this lie alone is going to damage or harm anyone, but it will without question interfere with any childs rational thinking, too many lies will put the child into overload.

Telling a child one lie is just like giving a child one cigarette.

longman said:

You know, for something you don't believe in..........................

Quite, methinks someone round here was scarred by having the truth told to them at too tender an age...

@ Paull and Arran:

So when other religions celebrate mythical events or characters we should take the same stance you have taken?  For instance:

"Humanistic Jews view the biblical Exodus story as one of the most powerful myths of the Jewish people, a tale that relates the courage and determination of a people fleeing slavery for freedom.

A Humanistic Passover Celebration
Humanistic Jews question the traditional explanations of Pesakh. There is no evidence that the Exodus occurred or that the Hebrew people were in Egypt in the numbers described. The traditional Haggadah includes an anthropomorphic, active, ethnocentric God and the passive deliverance by God of the Hebrews."

There is also the perspective that religion itself is a myth, so are you about to pooh-pooh all man-made religions too?

http://www.eridu.co.uk/Author/myth_religion/myth_religion.html

"It is widely presumed that myth and religion are two different things. To the extent that religion involves a whole array of non-myth elements – a moral code, a faith in a supreme being, and an obedience to the Church – this is true. However, if we focus on the primary element in religion, namely the Supreme Being (or God), then religion and myth become synonymous. Indeed, the conclusion of my life-long study of religion is that God is actually the personification of myth.

God – the personification of myth? The idea will sound weird to modern ears, and many people will think that I am denigrating the Supreme Being. After all, the word ‘myth’, in modern linguistics, is held to be synonymous with a fiction or a lie. But this is not my definition of myth. Far from it.

In fact, the word ‘myth’ derives from the ancient Greek word muthos, which meant simply an ‘utterance’ or a ‘traditional tale’. And these utterances, or traditional tales – usually concerning Gods and heroes – were generally considered to be true stories."

You know, for something you don't believe in..........................

IntenseWorld said:

Notice how you artfully didn't mention the part where I (and others posted further up) was not scarred.

I can't say that I have encountered any teenagers or adults who are emotionally scarred by the lack of Santa although numerous were left disappointed and dismayed.

When children hear stories like "Little Red Riding Hood" or "Hanzel & Gretal" they enjoy being scared but they don't believe the stories are real - anymore  than they believe -deep down -that the animals in "Wind in the Willows" live that way in real life but it's enjoyable to fantasize that they do.

Children know, or can easily be convinced, that these stories are fiction and fantasy whereas Santa is presented to them as fact and truth.

I suspect it's the same with Santa.  The fact that adults show no concern about a strange man coming down the chimney and walking round the house in the dead of night is the give-away but it's in the interests of a child to go along with the fantasy story - and, in all honesty, there is something magical about waking and finding all  those  goodies which have 'magically' appeared.

Are children who follow religions other than Christianity that know that Santa is a lie missing out on the joys of childhood? Do you feel sorry for them when they wake up on the 25th of December and it's an ordinary day apart from watching the Great Escape? 

Notice how you artfully didn't mention the part where I (and others posted further up) was not scarred.

When people have an agenda, a dogged persistence in only seeing their view, they have a tendency to cherry pick and ignore the rest.

IntenseWorld said:

I was never scarred by finding out Santa was a myth.  A myth, not a lie.

It is a lie because the parents fully well know that it is untrue whilst conveying the message to children that it is the truth. To make it worse it isn't an occasional fib in order to keep the peace at a particular moment in time, children often end up being duped by the Santa lie over a period of several years.

It would unquestionable be morally wrong for the teacher to not tell the truth, so how would they deal with it ?

Exactly.

I guess thats because nobody here works in a school and knows the dynamics of the this or how teachers deal with it - We can only imagine a situations such as..

"Miss, Abdul said that father christmas is not real and is just made up but my parents say he's real"..or just asking directly "Miss, is father christmas real ?"

It would unquestionable be morally wrong for the teacher to not tell the truth, so how would they deal with it ?

I'm discussing this subject with zealots who are unable to view it from as many perspectives as I can.

I have not received intelligent or satisfactory answers to certain questions.

Affirmative.