Is Santa silly?

It's like you are saying let people live with their illusions so long as they are happy.

If I went into school and told all the children that the religion their parents force them to follow is a load of claptrap would that also mean being a killjoy ?

Arran said:

What if such a child enquires about Christmas and receives a reply "I don't have any presents, my family doesn't celebrate Christmas" then is the person giving the reply a killjoy?

No, they are just stating facts.  They would be a killjoy if they said "Santa does not exist and your parents are lying to you." and that would also be unecessarily mean if they understood that many families follow the tradition and said it anyway.

I'm interested in answers from people who follow religions other than Christianity and do not celebrate Christmas. Do these people exist in the NAS?

NAS5794 said:

Surely most children, by the time they work out the truth, are old enough to understand why their parents said such a thing?

Work out the truth or find out the truth?

Anyone who believes otherwise is a killjoy of huge proportions.

Again, I ask what is the situation for children who follow religions other than Christianity and do not celebrate Christmas? Do they all have to keep their traps firmly shut in the school playground just in case it offends a child duped by their parents into believing that Santa is true? What if such a child enquires about Christmas and receives a reply "I don't have any presents, my family doesn't celebrate Christmas" then is the person giving the reply a killjoy?

You are clearly "Prince Paull of Nigeria" which-is-in-actual-fact "Bill & Ben the Flowerpot Men-Land."

Bill & Ben don't speak or understand plain English either.

that's just completely incoherent ?? I'll counter it with flubbiddy dubiddy doo.

Love it, countering proof that what you say is wrong (and accusing others of what you did yourself "a widely held but false belief") with personal slights.  Wonder who is really not the adult round here...hmmmn...?

I won't lower myself to insulting the way you have done.

Bye-by Prince Paull of Nigeria!

How is copying stuff from dictionaries and wikipedia any help to the debate ? Everyone with sufficient intellect should know what those words mean without having to google them, sorry I am presuming you are an adult, if not then I take that back.

But you should be able to debate without having to copy and paste stuff - do you not have a mind of your own. The bible must be true because it says so in the bible.

Also I'm doing a survery

a) Did you believe in santa claus when you were a child.

b) If you answered Yes to a) then  I am a Nigerian prince with $50,000,000 that I need to transfer to your bank account..etc..

It's descending into a farce.

myth - a widely held but false belief.

filling a child's head with myths can serve only to poison their rational thinking by suggesting and even coercing that things that are impossible are true.

imagination is pretending that things exist - being told and believing things exist that do not exist is not pretending and has nothing to do with imagination, people do not tell their children that santa claus is pretend but that he is real.

quote "Anyone who believes otherwise is a killjoy of huge proportions."

anyone who has to counter a debate through petty debunking obviously does not possess enough intellect to be able to put forward anything worthwhile. Is that your way of debating ?, oh ok then - anyone who tells their kids to believe in santa claus must have a screw loose.

NAS5794 said:

Surely most children, by the time they work out the truth, are old enough to understand why their parents said such a thing? Maybe if this was not so then there would be trust issues between parent and child, but I doubt Santa is even remotely related to the trust issues that do exist in some families.

Exactly.  I was never scarred by finding out Santa was a myth.  A myth, not a lie.

Perhaps those who feel that way have overriding problems in their family dynamics and it's not about Santa being a "lie" at all, but those family dynamics.

People on the spectrum do not lack imagination, it frequently gets confused by others with social imagination, which is impaired.  I think there is a delight in those myths that children can enjoy while they are children.  Anyone who believes otherwise is a killjoy of huge proportions.

Oh dear I must be scarred for life! I believed in Santa big time, and remember that time with affection.

Am I really now so disturbed?

IntenseWorld said:

You don't say if you are on the spectrum or not, I suspect you are as you blurted out the truth to your classmates without thought.  I don't blame you though as your parents put the knowledge in your head and I feel they were very unfair in bursting such an innocent bubble.

I come from a family who thinks that deceiving children into thinking that Santa delivers Christmas presents is silly in this day and age that could lead to disappointment and distrust later in life. I wasn't alone at school with this knowledge. There were other children who didn't celebrate Christmas or believe in the Santa malarkey. With hindsight I was probably being insensitive as I perceived the Santa lie to be a downright lie that needed exposing rather than a cultural matter.

How many members of the NAS are there who don't celebrate Christmas or tell their children that Santa is a hoax?

The fight between Galileo and officialdom is definitely an inspiring and important tale, I agree with that, and should be continued through to modern day. Although I think there's a difference between telling the truth to officialdom, and telling the truth to other people who are in "the same boat" in life.

Yes there is a difference but there is also a common theme of pack mentality and how an overwhelmingly high proportion of people prefer to behave in a way that pleases other people even if it means following a lie rather than making themselves unpopular with their associates or risking prosecution by following the truth. I'm of the opinion that a significant proportion of parents lie to their children about Santa because they think every other parents does or to avoid the possibility of upsetting their classmates if their children know the truth at too young an age.

The Santa lie can be a difficult one for teachers to handle, especially in a school where a lots of children don't celebrate Christmas. It puts them into a dilemma of either telling the truth with the potential to destroy the magic of Christmas for some children or come across as a liar and a deceiver for children who know the truth. 

Santa has a lot to answer for........

I didn't know about Galileo, but Socrates and Jesus were both killed for telling the truth. This is an example of true martyrdom, someone who see the truth and defends it at all costs - even his own life (not someone who kills other people because they have different views)

IntenseWorld said:

[quote]"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." - Albert Einstein[/quote]

The trouble is, there is apparently your version of the truth, and the actual truth, and you won't accept that your version isn't in fact, the truth.

No sir, truth as in those telling their kids the lie are not taking truth seriously in small matters.. thats what I meant.

Truth is fact, to tell something as a fact when it is not the truth is a lie.

Arran said:

This is now entering the realm of psychology. Everybody who knows the truth basically has a choice of either telling the truth or telling a lie in order to please other people. Some people basically have the attitude of telling the truth at any price and others prefer to say things to pleases particular people or majority even if what they say is an outright lie.

One of my heroes is Galileo. Every sane person today believes that he was right and the officialdom of the time was wrong, but only a small fraction are aware that at the time very few locals came to his defence. Why? Because the majority of people in society prefer to keep their nose clean and do not want to upset their families, friends, and work colleagues or run the risk of prosecution themselves in the name of the truth.

The fight between Galileo and officialdom is definitely an inspiring and important tale, I agree with that, and should be continued through to modern day. Although I think there's a difference between telling the truth to officialdom, and telling the truth to other people who are in "the same boat" in life. In terms of officialdom, I'd rather tell the truth when dealing with them, as they're in such a position to influence things, and as such, it's fairly important that they get things right - often officialdom is the inventor of lies that are deliberately designed to keep people down, and they have to be challenged with rigor. When it comes to other people, who aren't really in positions of power, I tend to reserve judgement, for practical reasons. The bottom line for me, is that I generally try and be honest and open when I think it may be effective, and as far as other people (who aren't in positions of power) are concerned, I don't tell the truth, as they can easily turn against you whenever you're not seen to be heaping praise on them. Okay, I'm definitely no paragon of virtue, I openly admit. But there's a hell of a lot of pain that can be associated with the emotional problems of AS and autism, and I just tend not to aggravate the old nervous system unless it's unavoidable or will have a definite positive impact that I can be sure of.

Lying is something children have to learn about. It is vital for survival.

Absolutely correct, longman. There are too many social situations where it's just far too risky to tell the truth. I know that AS/autism spectrum makes it difficult to gague those situations, but once you're faced with them routinely, it becomes easy to spot.

Perhaps the safest thing you can be in terms of society is to be unpredictable/unreadable. It's better to keep other people guessing, than for them to know immediately who you are, what you believe and what you're up to.

Although I am glad you popped on Longman to use your academic background to enhance the logic and evidence of everyone else).

Thank you, IntenseWorld! :D

I think it's important to understand firstly that 'hygenic' does not always translate to 'safe/good to eat', and secondly and more importantly that ritual cleanliness or uncleanliness does not necessarily relate to biological hygeine. It's a cultural and religious concept with its own terms of reference.

Alex R (posting personally)

Fair point, Alex, and well made.

Okay, I'd probably be better calling this discussion a day; I've got to concentrate my energies on other things at the moment. I think we're at an impasse, where everyone's opinions are firmly set, which is fine by me! :D

...TAXI FOR LIQUIDSUNSHINE!

LiquidSunshine said:

I should add, that some of the concepts of halal/haram are provably false. Such as the idea that pigs are unclean animals, and therefore are "haram", when it's been proven scientifically that pigs are a very clean and hygenic species.

I think it's important to understand firstly that 'hygenic' does not always translate to 'safe/good to eat', and secondly and more importantly that ritual cleanliness or uncleanliness does not necessarily relate to biological hygeine. It's a cultural and religious concept with its own terms of reference.

Alex R (posting personally)

longman said:

This debate on the morality of lying can go on for pages, but it still doesn't alter the fact that it is only people on the spectrum (and a few narrow religious sects) that are at all bothered.

And there are those of us who, despite being on the spectrum and hating social lying and that are honest to the point of bluntness, can also appreciate magical myths that make childhood the innocent time it should be.  We can tell the difference.  Now that's evolution .

Paull said:

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." - Albert Einstein

The trouble is, there is apparently your version of the truth, and the actual truth, and you won't accept that your version isn't in fact, the truth.

LiquidSunshine said:

In fact, IntenseWorld has already shown that your assertions are incorrect, by the link provided earlier in the thread. You've neither given sufficient evidence nor a compelling theoretical possibility that the myth of Santa's existence does any harm. Indeed, it's already been proven that it hasn't.

...which is why I have more-or-less given up posting in reply to Paull, because some people won't accept what you say no matter how much evidence you give them, because their agenda is to refuse to accept they are wrong.  I don't believe he even read the link judging by what he is still saying, he has a blinkered approach and nothing anyone can say will change his mind.  (Although I am glad you popped on Longman to use your academic background to enhance the logic and evidence of everyone else).