Pronouns...

He was fine about it, he knows I’m not prejudiced just a slower learner! I’m still puzzled as to why a habit that was fully ingrained in how I talked to and about them online rebooted back to an old restore point in my brain when thd spoken conversation came up. But not for long and I think I’m adjusted on all fronts! 

The first sentence made me chuckle. I knew what you meant, but it was how I read it... A doctor that fans, as opposed to 'some Doctor Who fans'. Knowing how much of a Doctor Who fan you are, I was curious as to why the mention of 'some doctor' who fans was considered relevant to include. Um, hope that makes sense? 

Your anecdote about the meet-up and frequent slip-ups sounds like something I too would be guilty of, but I'm glad you managed to eventually rectify it. From my perspective, unless the person you had met up with was also non-binary, they hopefully overlooked your slip-ups and didn't take offence.

Ah that's okay I'll just share then incase it helps. And maybe it will help others who get stuck with it.

If you are unsure of the pronoun, he/she/they etc, you can always use the persons's name if you know it. So it stops being stuff like "they went to the shop" it would be "Sam went to the shop" and rather than "that's their shopping bag" it would be "that's Sam's shopping bag". And it will always be correct because their name is their name. Also they usually introduce themselves with their name, even if not with their pronouns. So you tend to be able to use it as a good default.

Also if you want to persevere with trying singular they as a default for Nonbinary people you can think of it the same was as not knowing if they are a man or woman, you can remember it like how I'm about to relay an event to you now: Yesterday someone delivered a parcel to my door and I do not know them or their gender but that's okay because they don't need me to know their gender to deliver a parcel. :)

Or alternatively if you get stuck in the single vs plural hiccup in your head you can try imagine the person you are talking to is actually a swarm of friendly bees stacked up under some human clothes.

(That's the advice I give people if they ask about my pronouns anyway and for the most part it seems to help.)

Also we really do appreciate people who at least try and don't give up even if they fluff it sometimes, just a quick apology and to move the conversation swiftly on should do the trick. No need to beat yourself up.

BZzzzzzz 

And speaking of Eddie and bees:

www.youtube.com/watch

To clarify, the ‘strange thing’ was my twice-over reprogramming and not the change itself! This person is much happier now that they are ‘out’ (they were already gay prior to that but this was a further thing they’d worked through) and that’s been great to see 

A strange thing happened to me recently. I’m in a small discord server with some doctor who fans and one person on there  changed their name to a non binary one, and their pronouns from he/them to them. It don’t take me long to adjust - just  a couple of slip ups in week one. But then I met up in real life for a coffee with this one guy off the forum and when talking of this other person as a mutual friend, I suddenly found that I’d relapsed back to ‘he’ and ‘his’ etc. (the other fellow, younger than me, was instead flawless with a constent ‘they’ etc. and it just seemed a natural bi-product of being plugged in to the leading edge of things ‘natively’ if that makes sense). i kept apologising and amending and by the end had the ‘they’ thing in place. But I was surprised at myself for having to learn it once for online, then a second time verbally. As though some dinosaur part of my brain had stood with its arms crossed at the back of my brain even while I thought I was being all enlightened and stuff. Anyway, being in one’s forties we have to keep on our toes. Too young to give up and say ‘I’m not keeping up with change’(nor should we be saying that!), but too old for it to happen without a little more effort than millennials and younger who default yo ‘they’ when in doubt anyway. Evolution is speeding up a little in line with technology and it’s wonderful. But the middle aged among us may make tiny missteps as we do our best to be our best. 

That's a kind offer Sam. In the real world, I've not found myself in a situation like the one 'Sperg' described, but I imagine that if I was, I would probably find myself explaining that I would try my best, but to allow for slip-ups as and when they may occur.

Sporadic Sparkly said:

As a heterosexual woman in my late forties, I openly admit that I struggle to get my head around this 'pronouns' business. Not because I think it's wrong or have an issue with people that identify as being non-binary, but because 'pronouns' (in the context of non-binary) are a relatively recent thing. I can't remember when it was that Eddie Izzard had announced that 'they' wanted to be referred to as they/them, but I frequently find myself slipping up and referring to they/them as he/him.

I can see that you genuinely care enough to try so can I give you some advice that might help?

Thinking about your recent post where you appeared to be actively pleading with NAS friends to un-friend you, my first thought upon reading this post was to question if you might be intentionally trying to provoke people. A case of, "They ignored my pleas, so now I'll have to up my game." 

For what it's worth, I did not take offence at this post of yours, and I felt I 'got' what you were trying to say.

As a heterosexual woman in my late forties, I openly admit that I struggle to get my head around this 'pronouns' business. Not because I think it's wrong or have an issue with people that identify as being non-binary, but because 'pronouns' (in the context of non-binary) are a relatively recent thing. I can't remember when it was that Eddie Izzard had announced that 'they' wanted to be referred to as they/them, but I frequently find myself slipping up and referring to they/them as he/him.

To my mind, trying to remember that a she/her or he/him is now a they/them, is not that dis-similar to trying to make a conscientious to remember that Josephine Bloggs (who we have known for many years) is no longer a 'Miss' and now goes by the name of 'Mrs Josephine Jones'. 

Despite being born in an era where homophobia and racism were rife, my parents had liberal attitudes, which I believe rubbed off on me. We would watch the likes of 'Alf Garnett' and laugh. Not because we agreed with the character's views, but because his bigoted beliefs seemed so ridiculous to us. 

I would really rather hope my comments come over as the constructive criticism for future posts they are meant to be, rather than a scolding. I undestood the the blatant absurdist humour in your post but sadly too often (usually on other platforms mind you, *cough damn you Twitter *cough*) people will "unironically" say fully ridiculous things with their full bigotted chest. And I do see how easily those that are unused to your manner could get the complete wrong end of that stick. Which is sad because when that happens the whole situation turns toxic and can hurt everyone involved.
I know these things are new for you, but I've never know you to act in bad faith on here, and I wouldn't want to patronize you by overly sugar coating things either.

Sorry if I misunderstood the message, I often can be sarcastic but fail to pick up when someone else is doing the same. Autism obviously makes us not interpret things correctly, I just don’t want any bad feelings between us, it’s been worrying me. I think I just spiked, I’m very much that life is far too short, hearts are much more important than parts. Everyone should just be whoever they want to be. Take care.

Hopefully nobody spied, er, anything before the needle and thread came to the rescue 

In the interests of civil atmosphere on the forum, I won't address your specific points or continue the debate at any greater length beyond this post. 

There's no way I'd have sparked a confrontation lightly, particularly as we share mutual friends; besides, you have always been civil towards me, even when I've plainly been wrong, and I'm grateful for that decency. You are a time-served and popular member here - and rightly so - in contrast, I am, admittedly, new and somewhat brash and unproven. I am often mistaken, but less often when I am *certain*. Your friends have, understandably, defended or at least not criticised you, in whatever manner they saw fit. I respect their loyalty to their friend simply for what is; it's a very natural response, whether valid or misplaced.

I'm not claiming that you are some dreadful person at all, simply that your views are obvious no matter the form in which you habitually, all too regularly, and mostly cryptically express those opinions even when unbidden. I'm not alone in observing all this. In criticising your post, I was attempting to look at the bigger picture, one beyond the particular bonds we have here, one that considers people I have no obvious connection with whatsoever...except that they are fellow human beings and, some of them, fellow forum members. I considered them...have you? Really? 

This is my last word in this thread; not because I'm aping the risible 'End of!' rubbish that too often passes for indisputable credibility in the mind of the speaker or writer but because I've 'said' all I wanted to even in my first post...an example of the free speech you frequently champion. I won't change my mind, and it's likely that you won't. So, let's have some peace here, while we all consider our views and our bonds and our biases.

Thanks.

Thank you to Debbie and sphynx for being more eloquent than I was - you both said it all for me.

Seeing up a fly. Muahahaha.

I just came up with a brilliant 'Simon style' reply:

Creeping like a spider, aren't you? 

Maybe it would help if you left a ;) or lol at the end. Problem with forum communication is a load of us here have trouble understanding tonal implications in person and have an even tougher time reading it out of text where there is no voice so we are forced to read things flatly and take them as face value. I know I had a tough time getting used to you and Lee for a few weeks when I first joined, and I even do okay with tone irl.

Another thing is, Trans jokes (situational) are fine but it must really be a joke, and you can't make the trans people the butt of it. We are a vulnerable minority in another vulnerable minority here already and don't need anything that can be read as antagonistic to us just trying to live our lives as our true selves.

...

Sewing up a fly - what a way to spend a Saturday. Actually that better than any plans I have.

I originally mistyped that as ‘seeing up a fly’ but corrected it in the Nick of time so nobody will ever….ah

Unknown said:

Godspeed

I'd rather hear lightspeed.:P:

I'm procrastinating and delaying !  My wardrobe has circa 20 identical T-shirts, circa 7 identical pairs of trousers, circa 20 pairs of identical socks, circa 20 pairs of (very nearly) identical pants......and a couple of "smart" shirts, trousers, suits etc.  I do not enjoy wearing 'different' things, so trying to buy 'different' things is a cause of some considerable upset to me.  Thanks for your Godspeed !

I need to patch one pair of my work trousers for this evening, Somehow they all developed rips, and holes, and missing zippers. Even if I wanted to go shopping for them, I have no idea where is the nearest, probably Churchil Square, 30min walk through busy city, nothanks, I'd rather spent 30min trying to thread the needle LOL