Autistic and Christian

For me the hardest part was always when they tea abd coffee afterwards and I was always the one left out.  This has happened in several different churches.  

There's also the issue of institutional ableism.  A lot of theology is based on the idea that humans are broken and God will fix them, but it also says that desease and siffering are a result of the Fall, and most Christians I know would include any kind of disability in this.  Churches often see disabled people as something for God to fix.  And then if they pray and you don't become miraculously healed then it's because you don't have enough faith, or the right kind of faith.  

Honestly, if people believe prayer really works, why don't they spend more time praying for things that really matter like equal rights or fixing the state of the NHS.

This is why I drifted to the pagan side of unitarianism.
I also don't attend congregations/meets.
I know what you mean. Although that born into sin and needing to be fixed is also applied to NT and able bodied people, it is definitely magnified when it comes to any of us who are the "other." And it never sat right with me that a loving omnipotent God would require anyone to change or "be fixed" to be worthy of love.
Also people praying for the "hand of God" to help is kinda silly*... I don't think people realise there are many hands of God, because the hand of God is you, it's me, and the man on the street. It's in the acts of everyday kindness we do for people. Everytime you put spare change in the guide dog collection box, etc.
*There's nothing wrong with prayer as a wish when the power to do is out of our own hands, but just wishing for something when you can actually put energy into enacting it instead is a waste of time imo.
Frankie Laine's "I Believe" is as much about human kindness as it is a metaphysical deity, we can all be that "someone" somewhere ready to help eachother. : )

p.s. I love your profile pic, "Fuschia is a dancer, dancing on her toes" I remember it from the book.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

And it never sat right with me that a loving omnipotent God would require anyone to change or "be fixed" to be worthy of love.

But that is not what the Bible says. "While we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8) and "greater love has nobody than this, that one lay down one's life for one's friends" (John 15:13). So God loves us before we change.

In fact, we are not able to change enough to be worthy of anything. Whatever we do is imperfect, and we know it. I know I get things wrong, and hurt people without meaning to, or maybe even deliberately in a bad mood! I don't love enough. I cannot live up to my own standards and this makes me feel bad. So God who loves us and wants a relationship with us has to help us.

Once we have accepted his help, he will begin to fix us. Both physically and spiritually, although not to perfection in this life. But not without our permission and co-operation, we can resist the process. That it takes time and that people resist is why churches are full or people who are still broken. But we know we are broken and we are in the process of mending.

Personally, I want to change and to be changed, because i am painfully aware of my own imperfections. I don't mean that I regard being autistic as an imperfection, but i am not even all that good at being autistic! I make lots of mistakes and gets stuff wrong and I don't like getting stuff wrong.

I'm sure an omnipotent God could have made people perfect to start with, so he must have a good reason for doing it this way. I don't know what it is, but I trust him that it is for the best somehow, even though it doesn't make sense to me and hurts. I know he loves me even though I fail, but he wants the best for me so will help me as I try to do better.

🐝 Bees 🐝 (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:

And it never sat right with me that a loving omnipotent God would require anyone to change or "be fixed" to be worthy of love.

But that is not what the Bible says. "While we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8) and "greater love has nobody than this, that one lay down one's life for one's friends" (John 15:13). So God loves us before we change.

In fact, we are not able to change enough to be worthy of anything. Whatever we do is imperfect, and we know it. I know I get things wrong, and hurt people without meaning to, or maybe even deliberately in a bad mood! I don't love enough. I cannot live up to my own standards and this makes me feel bad. So God who loves us and wants a relationship with us has to help us.

Once we have accepted his help, he will begin to fix us. Both physically and spiritually, although not to perfection in this life. But not without our permission and co-operation, we can resist the process. That it takes time and that people resist is why churches are full or people who are still broken. But we know we are broken and we are in the process of mending.

Personally, I want to change and to be changed, because i am painfully aware of my own imperfections. I don't mean that I regard being autistic as an imperfection, but i am not even all that good at being autistic! I make lots of mistakes and gets stuff wrong and I don't like getting stuff wrong.

I'm sure an omnipotent God could have made people perfect to start with, so he must have a good reason for doing it this way. I don't know what it is, but I trust him that it is for the best somehow, even though it doesn't make sense to me and hurts. I know he loves me even though I fail, but he wants the best for me so will help me as I try to do better.

Four.  Years.  Studying.  Christian.  Theology.  

Not to mention all the years I spent in the church.  

And yet you're still talking as if you know better than me and can tell me all this as if I hadn't heard it before.  Your views on LGBT+ issues are a perfect example of how you have taken a few verses and used them to justify a prejudiced opinion based on an outside moral viewpoint, or influenced by an external philosophy as you put it.  There are all kinds of rules in the bible that many Christians choose to ignore, but they focus on the sexual ones as a core value. 

On the one hand you say you blame evil on everyone, but then you also say that there are supernatural evil entities influencing people. 

And yes, for the sake of clarity, you have offended me.  You're still insinuating that my choices are sinful.  You're saying it's wrong to judge others even as you judging the faith of others as "not true Christianity."

I could keep arguing this, but quite frankly I have other things to do.

Triker it wasn't just you per se, and it wasn't anything you said that was the "final straw", yes we exchanged words but I feel like we at least somewhat met in the end somewhere more amiable than it could have gone. And I'd rather leave it there. This doesn't seem to be something we will ever agree on so hammering away at it after this realisation would be a colossal waste of both our time and energy. As I said I'm used to being put on the defensive being a minority within a minority but my spoons for it is finite and there is a whole bad vibe that's built up since so I'd rather simply leave this thread now rather than continue further. 

I absolutely agree that there are sometimes varying interpretations of scripture. Not about every aspect of the faith though, there are some things all Christians do agree on, and anyone not agreeing with those has some kind of faith which could not be accurately be called Christianity. There are some interpretations which have been influenced by external philosophies, that have produced inconsistent interpretations even going right back to theologians in the early church (which i find quite fascinating). I don't think any denomination has theology all correct, nor myself either! But some errors are more harmful than others are some are subtle and difficult to spot.

The role of women is indeed a knotty one, which has caused a lot damage, as is how the church has treated LGBT+ people as you point out. Thing is, I don't just believe in God, but in supernatural evil entities who want to do humans harm, and one of their favourite ways of doing that is to twist theology to introduce these harmful doctrines and cause people to act in hateful rather than loving ways. So between the observable fact that all us humans are flawed and very capable of hurting each other even with the best of intentions, and the influence of supernatural evil, it is no wonder that bad things happen in churches.

Nobody should be suggesting any people are more flawed than any other people. OK so Hitler's sin was on a grander scale than many people's, but being judgemental and hating someone is just as much a sin as actually murdering them. Whichever christians were being judgemental to you were by doing so sinning but they must have skimmed over that part of their Bible reading! Jesus spoke with marginalised groups, often in preference to the religious establishment, as you must know from Bible college. Every Christian should be trying to change to be more like Jesus, but we can't do it on our own, we need the help of the Holy Spirit. The more we try to do it in our own strength, according to our own idea of how things should be, rather than trying to understand what the Bible really teaches, which is radical love, the more we will fail and the more we will hurt others and ourselves.

I guess it is somewhat nuanced, the thing about change. We are worthy of love apart from whether we change, I do maintain this is what the Bible teaches. But also I would agree that change is required, from absolutely everyone, no exceptions, no sinner worse than any other. Just, the reason for the change is not in order to be worthy of love, but because we realise that we need to change. It generally takes a long time, longer than a lifetime, but it is a process we need to engage in.

Whatever one makes of the story of the fall, all humans have done something which harmed someone else, and also things which harm themselves. God wants us to not do this because he loves us and doesn't want us harmed. There are churches which affirm the "lifestyle" choices you have been told you have to change. We are all different and all have different temptations to different kinds of sin. The way I read scripture I would have to try to be celibate if I had that temptation, but but that is my personal choice and would be between me and God. I try not to judge others for their choices, nor impose my choices on them, though I do want to have the conversation about the reasons why each of us has made the choice we have, not least because i might be wrong, which I would want to know. Though I find that hard when they choose to do things which are harmful to the environment, for example, which many Christians don't even think twice about even while they are obsessing over other people's sexual sin. And I certainly don't have it right regarding my own sin, the ones I am aware of and actively working on (and failing at!) and the ones I am sure I have that I don't even realise.

Maybe I'm still just a d*ck but I blame evil on everyone (except God, as he did not want us to be evil, but in creating us with free will he must have known it would happen) not just Adam and Eve, certainly not on marginalised groups. I hope I haven't offended you. I'm sure there is a lot I could learn from you, I'm still only learning myself. And I hope I have expressed myself right, I'm sure I might have made mistakes even though I try hard not to. And this is a very long reply!

I'm really sorry if you feel I am being pushy but I do not feel comfortable with just being told to let it drop. Whether that is my autism or some flaw in my character. I hold no ill will to you either and have no wish for you to hate me, but i am not feeling that either of us is really understanding the other and I do apologise for my part in that, but i want to understand and to be understood. I thought that was a thing this forum would help with, that we as autists ought not be like NTs and should be able to communicate with each other so I would be sad to have to give up like that.

I am saddened that you were taught a form of Christianity which had bad (as in both incorrect and harmful) theology, unfortunately that does happen. It is the people who taught you that i was criticising, not you. I don't read an English version, I have studied the Greek and read the NT in that and I am learning Hebrew, precisely because I want to know whether things being taught are actually what the Bible says rather than some flawed human's interpretation. Not that I expect I will always get it right! But I want to see how those varying translations are reached. This is because I was also exposed to bad theology and harmful teaching by people who took over the church i went to.

I'll stop talking and leave if that's what people want, but I won't lie, the attitudes I've encountered make this thread feel very exclusionary and that I'm once again being pushed out of a space I should be able to have an equal place and voice in.

Because OP was asking about exeriences of Church of which I do have, just not after my diagnosis, and since OP didn't mention they only wanted experiences from active Christians their thread doesn't exclude me*.
(If you read my reply to the OP directly it makes more sense. I also didn't say I reject it in it's entirety as you'd see from my mention of the Universalist overlap in that reply. So please do not make out that I have said things I didn't.)
Sorry but that question feels very dismissive and unwelcoming as it seams preconcieved assumptions have been made about my right to speak here.
It's sad the irony is going to be lost on some people here. But I'm used to it.

*at least it shouldn't.

I am curious, why comment on this thread if you reject Christianity in its entirety?

Thank you for your apology, I respect you have a right to your opinion and we shall simply have to differ on some things. I do hope you apreciate how not having religious beliefs in the mainstream I am very used to having to passionately defend my position. And my shields are thorny for good reason. There are many versions of the bible and I am refering to the way some versions are taught by a particular branch of christianity one I have direct experience with regarding a religious school when I was younger so I refuse to accept that I am wrong (as it was an observation from experience, not a claim from an imagined perception).
I also observe to maintain a mutual degree of respect it may simply be best if we, the two of us specifically, do not continue this conversation with one another lest our differences in this area become unreconcilable. I hope you understand why I hold no ill will to you but feel this to be the best course of action.

Having spent 4 years at Bible college, working and studying Christian theology, I can confidently say that that is one interpretation.  

The problem is that there are many different themes and interpretations of the bible, and everybody seems to think that theirs is the "right and correct" one.   Whether you believe in facts or not, Biblical interpretation is a very subjective matter, as history shows.  You just have to look at the role of women to see how things have altered over time and in different places.

Churches still carry out conversion therapy.  The Salvation Army have refused shelter to LGBT+ people in need.  I have been told that my "lifestyle" is a problem to God and Christians have made all kinds of judgements about me and towards me.  I have been told that I need to change to be a part of the church.  It's not incorrect to say that prejudice and discrimination still happen in the church. 

The problem isn't with the way that God made anyone, the problem is that people are d*cks and prejudice is not going to be eradicated while people still blame "evil" on the Fall and lump marginalised groups as part of that failing.  

Sorry I have failed to express my meaning clearly. I mean no disrespect. I was not saying you were wrong for your religious beliefs. Rejecting Christianity because you feel like it is valid. Rejecting it because someone misrepresented it is understandable, but is not a good reason. If someone disbelieves that I am autistic because I don't "look autistic" or because I showed empathy and they don't think autistic people can feel empathy, we would all agree that is an incorrect reason.

So I beg to disagree about whether a reason for anything can be incorrect. Some things are opinion, those cannot be incorrect - I am not wrong to prefer Sibelius to S Club 7, my husband would not be wrong if his preference was the opposite. Other things are about fact, and I am not someone who can accept the post-modern view that there is no such thing as a fact. If 2+2=4 is not correct then science doesn't work.

If I decided to divorce my husband because I believed he did not love me, but in fact he did love me deeply, then my reason for leaving him would have been incorrect. If he only said he loved me but his actions showed he did not then I would not have been incorrect. If someone lied to me about his actions and I believed the lie, that would be tragic.

I realise religion is an emotive subject, but if this was a more neutral subject, then as an autist, I would still be wanting to correct an error in how someone understood a thing I knew stuff about. So as an autist I feel a duty to point out a factual error, I'm sure most of us relate to that! But also as a Christian i do feel it is my duty to explain why, because the consequences are eternal.

You made a claim (that God required a person to change to be worthy of love) which is provably not what the book which is the manual of Christianity teaches, and thus is an incorrect claim. If you are rejecting Jesus solely based on a misunderstanding then that would be sad. If you have other reasons as well then that would be interesting to discuss.

I hope that clarifies my meaning and that I have not offended you.

People are free and valid to embrace or reject Christianity for any number of reasons, none of which are incorrect. They can do so just because they feel like it. That's what religious freedom means. You have exactly 0 duty to point anything out to me regarding religion so I must respectfuly ask you do not proselytise to me in that manner. We can discuss differences and similarities but please do not disrespect me by suggesting I am wrong for my religious beliefs.

Beautiful reminder of what I need to know: thank you. 

Yes, but if you rejected Christianity because of a reason which is not correct then it would be remiss of me not to point that out.

I'm not a Christian though so it doesn't matter to me what the bible says.
This is what I'm saying: Still a believer, but a whole different religion.