My Autistic Child goes crazy

Hi all,

I'm locking this thread now because as it's been pointed out, it has drifted off topic.You're welcome to start new threads on specific topics.

take care,
Anil

@Altruistica: I don't dismiss the vaccine link personally, I think there could be some connection and I do think that Andrew Wakefield was unfairly demonised.  I am very open-minded to hearing that vaccines have contributed to autism, or some forms of it.

I am also keeping an eye out on what the other possible causes or contributors of autism are and I am as concerned as you.

I think with the impulsivity thing, I meant as viewed by others.  If you didn't know someone had planned and thought something through, as that would be an internal process to them and unless they communicated that they were doing it, you wouldn't know whether they had been impulsive or not.  Sometimes, the thinking through may have been on related matter e.g. years before, Aspies usually have good memories and may store that information and if something occured to an Aspie, having had that planning and absorbing moment years before we could be confident enough to just go ahead and do it when the last piece of the jigsaw clicked into place and the opportunity arose.  We are logical but that doesn't mean we are ponderously slow.  Ideas can come to us quicker.

I think what it is, is that often we have a different method of reaching some of the same behaviours as NTs.

I wasn't arguing with you in my previous reply, just putting my point across as an Aspie.

This thread is so far derailed from OPs original post now.

NAS21846 said:

Scorpion is extremely deferential to the vaccine makers because I think he thinks they are qualified and therefore 'untouchable' because of their 'authority and supposed expertise'.

No, I'm not, Altruistica.

The makers of stuff, be it vaccines, cars, or anything else, are not the people I look to when I wish form an opinion on a scientific matter.

I look to science. Science doesn't make anything. Well, apart from knowledge. And, I look for what information I can find on the scientific research done on the matter and form my opinions based on the concensus of that information.

This is called critical thinking.

It is not 'defering to authority', it is 'thinking for oneself'.

NAS21846 said:

What I mean by this is......ok let's accept for arguments sake that the rise in autism is because of any of the following:

1. Genetic mutation

2. Monsanto's poisoning of the food supply through pesticides.

3. Vaccines, both what's in them and the scheduling.

4. Rise in telecommunications especially WI-Fi causing chromosonal damage to embryos, fetuses, baby or toddler.

5. Rise in poisonous gases from increase use of the motor car

6. We've just got better at spotting the symptoms and so are diagnosis it in more and more people.

From my limited understanding of adults on the spectrum I make these generalisations (and these I am making not to aggravate anyone....please respond if I have made incorrect generalisations).

1. There would be many more single occupancy households. Adults on the spectrum appear to me to find it harder not only to make friends and forge relationships, but find it harder to tolerate other partner's demands and hence stay together (remember these are generalisations....of course there will be exceptions).

2. The result of this would be a dramatic fall in the population rate. If people are not staying together, any children they did have would be an increased burden to either of the partners. Let's not forget that one of the most dramatic statistics associated with autism is the divorce rate of parents of a child on the spectrum ( I think currently 80% as opposed to the 40% of parents with nt children).

Those are indeed gross generalisations.

You may be right, however, because those adults on the spectrum are 87 times more likely to have an NT partner than an AS/ASD partner (if we use you 1 in 88 statistic (which is debateable (there are no exact figures)), then it may be very different if things were the other way round.

I know that when I look around my friends I find that those I most get along with are those that display many AS/ASD traits, and those I find it hardest to get along with are those that are most neurotypical.

Therefore, I believe that if we lived in a predominantely AS/ASD society we would not see more single occupancy households, or a dramtically lower population rate (and even if we did, I'd actually argue that that would be a good thing), because the majority of partnerships would be AS/ASD-AS/ASD not AS/ASD-nonAS/ASD as happens now.

Instead, I think the things you pin on the AS/ASD person in such partnership would instead get pinned on the nonAS/ASD person.

The truth however, is that we shouldn't look at these statistics as being the fault of the either the AS/ASD person or the nonAS/ASD person in the partnerships, but rather a result of two incompatible people trying to make a go of it and failing.

I.e. the fault lies with the incompatibility not with the people.

3. Maybe the society would resemble Aldous Huxley's 'Brave New World' more than George Orwell's '1984' because the autistic adults would be in the massive majority. Maybe it would be easy to have an extremely Fascist regime which controlled everything from economics to eugenics without having any problem selling it to the masses.

What?! Why?!

AS/ASD people are no more stupid (in fact, people at the AS end of the spectrum, generally, have a, often significantly, higher IQ than average), and no more easy to manipulate.

In fact, because of our tendency to think logically, and rationally, about things, I think it would be far harder for such regimes to exist.

History, and the world as exists today, would actually suggest that predominantly nonAS/ASD societies are highly likely to be oppressive, and facist.

It is only in very recent history that that hasn't been the norm!

When viewed from this angle, is the never ending increase in autism rates specifically engineered to produce a New World Order that has little empathy with the ideas of spontaneity, impulse, creativity, anarchism but embraces whole-heartedly the concepts of rules, order, repetitiveness and deference?

You have a very insulting, and I believe very incorrect, view of what it means to be on the AS/ASD spectrum, Altruistica.

I don't know, but I also know there seem to be very view other people remotely concerned with where this might all be heading.

Maybe that's a sign that you're wrong.

NAS21846 said:

3. Maybe the society would resemble Aldous Huxley's 'Brave New World' more than George Orwell's '1984' because the autistic adults would be in the massive majority. Maybe it would be easy to have an extremely Fascist regime which controlled everything from economics to eugenics without having any problem selling it to the masses.

When viewed from this angle, is the never ending increase in autism rates specifically engineered to produce a New World Order that has little empathy with the ideas of spontaneity, impulse, creativity, anarchism but embraces whole-heartedly the concepts of rules, order, repetitiveness and deference?

I don't know, but I also know there seem to be very view other people remotely concerned with where this might all be heading.

You don't need great empathy to know a good idea when you see one.  You are talking stereotypically.

Many of the geniuses who broke the mould, made discoveries and thought outside of the box are thought to have been on the autistic spectrum, people like Einstein and Tesla for instance.

Rules are not so much about blindly following rules for us.  We don't like surprises, we like to know what's coming next.  But if a rule is stupid or pointless we will challenge it and not see why we should follow it.  This is why many autistic children will have behavioural issues such as challenging teachers.  Bang goes your deference theory  there too.  We are unimpressed by authority because of someone's status, unlike NTs who will cow-tow, even if internally they don't respect the person, they will boot-lick to get patted on the head.

We like to plan and think through the logic, but that doesn't mean we won't just go ahead and do something, so who is to know how impulsive it was?

Many autistic people are highly artistic and creative.

Now who is lacking spontaneity...the Aspie who is uncontained by the boxes of society...or yourself who's mind was contained by the stereotypical statements they have read and absorbed as fact? 

NAS21846 said:

Hope.......the  capitals were used to highlight the difference between a parent and a child......not neccesarily the difference between an NT parent and an Autistic Parent (are there any on this site?).....

Yes, there are.  I have AS and I have one child with HFA and one with AS.

I want to make the point that I did not find RachelLouise's post offensive.  I will not pass judgement on anyone who was upset by use of the word crazy, that's their business and I won't be drawn into any discussion on that side of it however.

I just want to assure RachelLouise that I don't believe she has been thoughtless or failed to understand the sensitivities of people on the spectrum.  She did not say autistic = crazy, or say that people with autism are crazy.  She just used the word to describe the severity of her son's outbursts and it had nothing to do with describing his autism.

Any person is capable of crazy behaviour, regardless of their condition or lack thereof.  It's commonly used in society for a variety of reasons.

Unless someone says you are crazy; your child is crazy or someone else is crazy with specifity, they are not referring to your condition, they are just quantifying the level/degree of behaviour.  Of course someone could call your behaviour crazy which again, could be used towards anyone.  Unless they qualify their accusation that it is because you have [insert condition or other word/tone of voice insinuating or indicating that you have some deficit making you behave that way] a reason that is clear they are using as an insult, then they are not being insulting or discriminatory.

I agree with the other poster who said, someone has come on here looking for advice and support and instead has received some responses that were not the kind to be of help to her/her son.  She sounds like a caring mother trying to do the best.  Any parent who seeks advice to help their child should be commended, and I think her own sensitivities to autism and the traits it brings will be heightened due to having her own son having it, so she would be the last person to denigrate autistic people.

Well I have aspergers, but would not be offended by the casual  description of the word 'crazy' in relation to an autistic child. However, I can be pedantic myself about other words, and can understand why some people with autism would get upset. What we need to do here, is to forgive and forget - let go; it is not that important. But your remarks, altruistica, shine a bad light on you, and there is no need to type in capitals. Maybe you have 'heightened sensibilities'?

I don't know much about ADHD, but I think there are similarities with what you describe, noetic, and autistic meltdowns.

(and, incidentally, I think to 'go ballistic' is fine as it does not imply anything about the person's, or one's own, state of mind)

Anyway, to get back on-topic, I think the main similarity is that asking "what do I do when..." is to ask the wrong question - one needs to ask "what do I do to avoid..." - these behaviours have triggers and the key is to avoid the triggers.

A son of family friends who is ADHD with autistic traits used to "go ballistic" when it was time to leave our flat, he'd sometimes attack me or try to bite me, which terrified me as other children and their behaviors were confusing enough to me without being physically attacked. At least his behavior was predictable, I guess. 

Christine,

I've noticed that I incorrectly addressed one of my posts to you.

Appologies for that.

I have corrected the mistake.

Rachel,

Would you care for a shovel with which to dig youself an even deeper hole?

Or might I suggest that you stop, listen, and respect the opinion of someone who is actually on the autistic spectrum themselves, instead of just dismissing it like that.

Using the word crazy is disrespectful to those of us who are on the spectrum.

Those of us who, by the way, have much more experience, and a far better understanding, of the condition than you will ever have.

longman said:

What I would ask for is a lttle more understanding of spectrum behaviour. By the very nature of the condition we are inclined to perseverate. We tend to go on and on about things long after the initial context has been exhausted. I do it often, and it gets me into all kinds of trouble.

The NT perspective (and I use NT to represent people not on the spectrum) is very different. They tend to forget what they've said or done a short time after it has arisen, because the context no longer requires it.

For some reason due to the condition we have trouble forgetting or forgiving a perceived sleight. I think it partly arises from the need to analyse what has been said or done, because we aren't able to read context very efficiently.

So this sort of conflict is likely to happen often on an autism community discussion site.

I wondered if the moderators could take account of this. Its symptomatic of the condition and ought to be something the moderators are equipped to handle. It may be they can establish a means of diffusing the situation more effectively than happened here.

Yes! This is exactly the point (amongst others) that I'm making over here: http://community.autism.org.uk/discussions/feedback/website-problems-suggestions/moderation-respect-offensive-language

(though I probably didn't word it quite as well)

Can we please "draw a line under this one" ie just forget it....please.

The problem with just dropping it and forgetting about it is that then nothing will change.

I do however think the discussion needs to be moved out of this thread.

Hence my starting the above linked to thread.

Perhaps we could continue it there?

I'm sure I'm going to wish I hadn't come in on this one, but here goes.

I don't personally have any issue with the word "crazy", and I've no issue with the context in which it was originally used on this post.

What I would ask for is a lttle more understanding of spectrum behaviour. By the very nature of the condition we are inclined to perseverate. We tend to go on and on about things long after the initial context has been exhausted. I do it often, and it gets me into all kinds of trouble.

The NT perspective (and I use NT to represent people not on the spectrum) is very different. They tend to forget what they've said or done a short time after it has arisen, because the context no longer requires it.

For some reason due to the condition we have trouble forgetting or forgiving a perceived sleight. I think it partly arises from the need to analyse what has been said or done, because we aren't able to read context very efficiently.

So this sort of conflict is likely to happen often on an autism community discussion site.

I wondered if the moderators could take account of this. Its symptomatic of the condition and ought to be something the moderators are equipped to handle. It may be they can establish a means of diffusing the situation more effectively than happened here.

I'll pay for this last comment for eternity, but here goes. I think we've all gone crazy about something that really is of no consequence.

Can we please "draw a line under this one" ie just forget it....please.

Alex R - mod said:

Scorpion,

I don't know who's on the spectrum and who isn't, and I don't make the distinction when moderating. If you would like to discuss this, please email me at the address provided. I really don't want this thread to be derailed from its intended purpose any more.

Thanks,

Alex R - mod

Then I shall start a thread (here: http://community.autism.org.uk/discussions/feedback/website-problems-suggestions/moderation-respect-offensive-language) where such matters may be discussed openly, transparently, and publicly.

Alex R - mod said:

[quote][/quote]

poor rachel, not,,,, the original post should have been pulled off or edited by the NAS due to the wording, they are quick enough to crack down on any autistic members postings !

the word crazy being used to describe an autistic childs behaviour and association with the word crazy with autistic people is offensive and hurtful

I notice that NT's are very good are negating there actions as okay.

Autismtwo,

Please stop this. You have no business demanding that Rachel uses words in a particular way. You have already been asked recently to treat other users with respect. This is your last warning. If you do this again, your posts will be moderated, requiring approval from me, or one of the other moderators, before they are published.

When you signed up, you agreed to obey rule 1:

"Don’t post messages that are offensive or insulting to other users."

You made your own views about Rachel's words very clear. This has now gone well beyond that, into aggression and harassment.

I know you don't like the way the NAS does things. I have never censored your opinions about us. But when you harass other users like this, we will intervene.

If you wish to discuss this privately, please email community.manager@nas.org.uk.

Yours,

Alex R - mod

I am glad I am not the only one to spot your contradiction Alex, and if you do speak for the core of the NAS, shame on them. YOU JUST DON'T GET IT !.. ps I was not demanding anything.

If funny when you have a condition like autism, the worlds treats you like a spastic as if you have no views or rights,, this is a classic example of this...

It is a sad day when the word Crazy is openly used on a national autism site and the one insulted by this usage is reprimanded,, that is a lack of respect for the condition.

Alex I would question your position as moderator.  

quote" Don’t post messages that are offensive or insulting to other users"... ???? That is what the point was ? D'oh !

Scorpion,

I don't know who's on the spectrum and who isn't, and I don't make the distinction when moderating. If you would like to discuss this, please email me at the address provided. I really don't want this thread to be derailed from its intended purpose any more.

Thanks,

Alex R - mod

Alex,

Are the feelings of those members who are on the spectrum not as important as those who are not on the spectrum?

Assuming they are not, has Rachel been reprimanded for her use of an offensive and insulting word?

And if not, why not?

autismtwo said:

poor rachel, not,,,, the original post should have been pulled off or edited by the NAS due to the wording, they are quick enough to crack down on any autistic members postings !

the word crazy being used to describe an autistic childs behaviour and association with the word crazy with autistic people is offensive and hurtful

I notice that NT's are very good are negating there actions as okay.

Autismtwo,

Please stop this. You have no business demanding that Rachel uses words in a particular way. You have already been asked recently to treat other users with respect. This is your last warning. If you do this again, your posts will be moderated, requiring approval from me, or one of the other moderators, before they are published.

When you signed up, you agreed to obey rule 1:

"Don’t post messages that are offensive or insulting to other users."

You made your own views about Rachel's words very clear. This has now gone well beyond that, into aggression and harassment.

I know you don't like the way the NAS does things. I have never censored your opinions about us. But when you harass other users like this, we will intervene.

If you wish to discuss this privately, please email community.manager@nas.org.uk.

Yours,

Alex R - mod

Azalea:  having a meltdown, not nasty nor crazy

NAS5794 said:

Insensitive as that choice of word may have been, it could have been a lot worse. If either of you can think of a decent alternative, please share it.

I quite like the word "meltdown".