Functioning Labels - Open Discussion

Deepthought said:

I have always been under the impression that when such rhetorical practices are used ~ so should an exclamation mark

You're being silly, now, Deep. Hypophora does not require the response part of the call-and-response structure to be exclamatory, not in speech nor in writing. 

Not so, as I was merely being pedantic about punctuation and addressing the fact that having arguments with yourself does not form a valid consensus ~ in regard to your insistence upon mistaking the medical model of support criteria for social colloquialisms involving social status criteria, i.e., compliments and by contrast condemnations.

Deepthought said:

you previously described as and moralised to me about being, "Verbal chess is very much a game that neurotypicals delight in playing with one another. I can't speak for every autistic person, of course, but for me, direct questions are much easier to understand." So stick to direct questions, direct statements of fact and direct statements of opinion, as being then much easier to understand for the general reader.

Hmm. Sounds to me as if your ego is still smarting from this exchange from a while back. It wasn't intended as a pin to *** you, so my advice would be to let it go. I forgot about it minutes after writing it. So should you.

'Harbouring resentment is like drinking poison and then hoping it will kill your enemies.'

Remember that the map is not the territory ~ or in other words the projection of your imagined fantasy of me as harbouring resentment is not the reality of me, as there was no smarting on my behalf as I was as I am now calmly explaining again the facts of the matter ~ rather than arguing about your responses in some upset or angry mannerism, in that I find your responses as fascinating and intriguing as I do anybody else's.

So again:

Deepthought said:

Anyway, back on topic ~ stating that because you have not been given any indication of having a low, medium or high level of social support needs ~ despite having been diagnosed as being on the diagnostic spectrum; arguing that it is some form of discrimination is just not the case at all in medical terms, nor in sociological terms either ~ because rather than wilful bigotry our greatest problem is actually the ignorance that facilitates and enables ill will in society.

Deepthought said:

I have always been under the impression that when such rhetorical practices are used ~ so should an exclamation mark

You're being silly, now, Deep. Hypophora does not require the response part of the call-and-response structure to be exclamatory, not in speech nor in writing. 

Deepthought said:

you previously described as and moralised to me about being, "Verbal chess is very much a game that neurotypicals delight in playing with one another. I can't speak for every autistic person, of course, but for me, direct questions are much easier to understand." So stick to direct questions, direct statements of fact and direct statements of opinion, as being then much easier to understand for the general reader.

Hmm. Sounds to me as if your ego is still smarting from this exchange from a while back. It wasn't intended as a pin to *** you, so my advice would be to let it go. I forgot about it minutes after writing it. So should you.

'Harbouring resentment is like drinking poison and then hoping it will kill your enemies.'

hi welcome to this forum . 

Everyone says it shouldn't define you but i found it pretty had to ignore how different I am in theory. 

 Zen teaches me to not to blame others for your problems, not to be dualist in your thinking eg a them  and us approach.

There are many autistics who believe they are an autistic in a Neurotypical world. This type of thinking leads to further damage. 

Hidden autism, as someone recently diagnosed late in life i quite liked this term. I became interested in the subject supporting a colleague leading a neurodiversity group within the company. As I structured the work and read the research the patterns matched so following some online, then a formal assessment. You get told 'you are on the spectrum'. So that comes with a whole new identity you did not have before. So I now understand why my visual observation skills are different (would happily walk between two other people talking, and do) and the strengths that allowed me to have a fairly successful career. But what next? How should this define me? 

I'm sorry to hear that you've had such bad experiences :( I can relate, it's so difficult to get adequate support and the NHS is rubbish for helping. It also takes a lot of spoons to fight for being seen, which we don't always have.

I've also had to fight a lot for everything - for my diagnosis (it took me years), for my benefits also... ironically I wasn't taken seriously *because* I'm "high-functioning". At one point I was homeless, living in a hostel and getting food from the food bank. It took me 8 months of screaming and shouting to get my benefits sorted, which wiped me out.

I might be autistic but at least I’m high-functioning, right? Wrong.

This was my attempt at using hypophora. It's a common rhetorical device and involves asking a question, but then giving an immediate answer.

There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, “When will you be satisfied?” Never. We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality.

- Martin Luther King Jr.

In simplest terms, hypophora is a question with an immediate answer used speech and writing to capture the attention of the listener or reader.  

Deep,

Hey Michael! :-)

No matter now much we debate this, but the fact remains that these labels were created by neurotypicals to describe autistic people. I am autistic. On my diagnosis paperwork, it says I have an Autism Spectrum Condition. What it does not say is that I am high-functioning or low-functioning. Autism Spectrum Condition. 

Kanner's Syndrome involves lower ranges of social functioning, and Asperger's Syndrome higher ranges of social functioning.

I was referred for an Asperger Syndrome assessment in 2013 and verbally diagnosed that May as having in fact Asperger Syndrome ~ rather than any extent of Kanner's Syndrome, which would have been diagnosed as Autism then I believe.

Due though to the diagnostic unit I was diagnosed at in 2015 changing from using the [European] International Classification of Diseases version 10, to that of the [American] Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th edition (DSM-5) ~ my diagnostic report in July stated that I have Level 1 Autistic Spectrum Disorder (ASD) as "Requiring support"; rather than Level 2: “Requiring substantial support” or Level 3: “Requiring very substantial support” ~ which you can examine in full regarding the DSM-5 diagnostic criteria for ASD below:

DSM-5TM Diagnostic Criteria

Autism Spectrum Disorder 299.00 (F84.0)

A. Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):

1. Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.

2. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.

3. Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers.

Specify current severity:

Severity is based on social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior (see Severity Listings 1, 2 and 3 below).

B. Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities, as manifested by at least two of the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):

1. Stereotyped or repetitive motor movements, use of objects, or speech (e.g., simple motor stereotypes,
lining up toys or flipping objects, echolalia, idiosyncratic phrases).

2. Insistence on sameness, inflexible adherence to routines, or ritualized patterns of verbal or nonverbal
behavior (e.g., extreme distress at small changes, difficulties with transitions, rigid thinking patterns,
greeting rituals, need to take same route or eat same food every day).

3. Highly restricted, fixated interests that are abnormal in intensity or focus (e.g., strong attachment to or preoccupation with unusual objects, excessively circumscribed or perseverative interests).

4. Hyper- or hyporeactivity to sensory input or unusual interest in sensory aspects of the environment (e.g., apparent indifference to pain/temperature, adverse response to specific sounds or textures, excessive smelling or touching of objects, visual fascination with lights or movement). Specify current severity:

Severity is based on social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of
behavior (see 'Severity level [listings] for autism spectrum disorder' below).

C. Symptoms must be present in the early developmental period (but may not become fully manifest until social demands exceed limited capacities, or may be masked by learned strategies in later life).

D. Symptoms cause clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of current functioning.

These disturbances are not better explained by intellectual disability (intellectual developmental disorder) or global developmental delay. Intellectual disability and autism spectrum disorder frequently co-occur; to make comorbid diagnoses of autism spectrum disorder and intellectual disability, social communication should be below that expected for general developmental level.

Note: Individuals with a well-established DSM-IV diagnosis of autistic disorder, Asperger’s disorder, or pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified should be given the diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. Individuals who have marked deficits in social communication, but whose symptoms do not otherwise meet criteria for autism spectrum disorder, should be evaluated for social (pragmatic)
communication disorder.

Specify if:

With or without accompanying intellectual impairment

With or without accompanying language impairment

Associated with a known medical or genetic condition or environmental factor
(Coding note: Use additional code to identify the associated medical or genetic condition.)

Associated with another neurodevelopmental, mental, or behavioral disorder
(Coding note: Use additional code[s] to identify the associated neurodevelopmental, mental, or behavioral disorder[s].)

With catatonia (refer to the criteria for catatonia associated with another mental disorder for definition)
(Coding note: Use additional code 293.89 [F06.1] catatonia associated with autism spectrum disorder to indicate the presence of the comorbid catatonia.)

Severity level [listings] for autism spectrum disorder:

Severity level 3 “Requiring very substantial support”

Social communication.
Severe deficits in verbal and nonverbal social communication skills cause severe impairments in functioning, very limited initiation of social interactions, and minimal response to social overtures from others. For example, a person with few words of intelligible speech who rarely initiates interaction and, when he or she does, makes unusual approaches to meet needs only and responds to only very direct social approaches.

Restricted, repetitive behaviors
Inflexibility of behavior, extreme difficulty coping with change, or other restricted/repetitive behaviors markedly interfere with functioning in all spheres. Great distress/difficulty changing focus or action.

Severity level 2 “Requiring substantial support”

Social communication.
Marked deficits in verbal and nonverbal social communication skills; social impairments apparent even with supports in place; limited initiation of social interactions; and reduced or abnormal responses to social overtures from others. For example, a person who speaks simple sentences, whose interaction is limited to narrow special interests, and who has markedly odd nonverbal communication.

Restricted, repetitive behaviors
Inflexibility of behavior, difficulty coping with change, or other restricted/repetitive behaviors appear frequently enough to be obvious to the casual observer and interfere with functioning in a variety of contexts. Distress and/ or difficulty changing focus or action.

Severity level 1 “Requiring support”

Social communication.
Without supports in place, deficits in social communication cause noticeable impairments. Difficulty initiating social interactions, and clear examples of atypical or unsuccessful responses to social overtures of others. May appear to have decreased interest in social interactions. For example, a person who is able to speak in full sentences and engages in communication but whose to-and-fro conversation with others fails, and whose attempts to make friends are odd and typically unsuccessful.

Restricted, repetitive behaviors
Inflexibility of behavior causes significant interference with functioning in one or more contexts. Difficulty switching between activities. Problems of organization and planning hamper independence.

https://images.pearsonclinical.com/imag ... sorder.pdf

The fact that some neurotypicals have created labels to describe how much or how little I resemble them, may sound like a compliment.  But it isn't. I might be autistic but at least I’m high-functioning, right? Wrong.

The fact of the matter is neurologically typical, atypical and divergent people have independently and collectively developed categorical systems for identifying different objects and states of affairs since at very least the time of human's getting into cave painting ~ with a higher proportion of scientists, researchers and specialists being autistic rather than allistic, on account of having narrower or more singular ranges of interest and higher perseverant focus.

You are also confusing the social model as involving compliments ~ with the medical model as involving treatments, i.e., going to a doctor, being referred, getting diagnosed and receiving treatment and or support.  

Now since you have already stated that, "On my diagnosis paperwork, it says I have an Autism Spectrum Condition. What it does not say is that I am high-functioning or low-functioning." it really does not make sense in the next paragraph to ask, "I might be autistic but at least I’m high-functioning, right?" nor then to make even less sense by correcting yourself as being, "Wrong."

I think capitalism is significantly involved. 

It's to do with whether they can leave you t to scrape the bottom of your own barrel and if you can shout loud and long enough to get the help you need. 

I'm "high functioning". Got a 1st class degree in teaching maths n all dat. Doesn't mean I can cope the same as others, or that I don't need support.

I'm currently unemployed after having a major bout of (burn out /shut down) depression. 

I can't shout for help.

I can't bring myself to make demands.

If it hadn't been for my partner doing all the shouting and demanding on my behalf, I'd have just kept getting worse and worse until I did actually manage to kill myself.

There is no perfect system.

Our NHS is being compartmentalised and sold off to tory approved capitalist money-grubbing profiteering bullies who've only ever known what it is to ride roughshod over everyone in order to get what they want.

Someone else started a discussion called something like the NT world is a disaster. I agree. I think I should leave this thread now. I'm beginning to remind myself of the futility of existence. Sorry. 

Deep,

No matter now much we debate this, the fact remains that these labels were created by neurotypicals to describe autistic people. I am autistic. On my diagnosis paperwork, it says I have an Autism Spectrum Condition. What it does not say is that I am high-functioning or low-functioning. Autism Spectrum Condition. 

The fact that some neurotypicals have created labels to describe how much or how little I resemble them, may sound like a compliment.  But it isn't. I might be autistic but at least I’m high-functioning, right? Wrong.

Plastic said:

Sorry - I get confused by the way you lay out your posts - I find it very hard to read with the disjointed and multiple quotes, lines, comments, bold and regular type all together.

Apology so not required ~ I was enjoying the discussion with you and was only surprised and question mark over head for moment, if you would like to continue on with it as a discussion, I very much enjoy different perspectives on things, but only in the sense of each perspective being like as if one of the four rectangular or two of the square sides of a cuboid, in the integral sense of what is being discussed.  

I have never though had much or any interest in the modernised ego-cult misnomers of debates ~ where someone or some group is arguing to be right and prove the other wrong, but rather where everybody increases and more integrates their sense of knowledge, understanding and comprehension, with problems having become solutions or discussions to be continued. 

Regarding the "disjointed" thing of my posts ~ it involves in part converting written monologues into written dialogues, as practice for socially reciprocated exchanges verbally.

For the main part though ~ the "disjointed" thing involves the 'fragmentations' of my mind that give multitudinous perspectives and points of view, due to stress induced seizures from the age of 3, and bullying induced Schizotypal Personal Disorder from the age of 11 going on 12 ~ so in a 'Me, Myself and I' sense (rather than the schizophrenic Rod, Jane and Freddy sense) it is actually like a busy cloned geek convention in my body here, so perhaps be glad you only get the summary highlights, and the abridged versions at that!

The "quotation" thing involves being unable to recollect like I can verbally the actual statements written due to dysgraphia (with symbols morphing in my mind like with B becoming 8 and 6 becoming 9 etcetera, etcetera, etcetera), so being able to refer to each word, sentence or paragraph actually as written just above ~ is so very much easier than scrolling up and down again and again repeatedly between the post and reply boxes, with transformations aplenty.

Regarding the "bold type" problem ~ sorted. I always used to by hand write quoted text in a different colour or bold for ease of reference, and on the internet using bold text to represent original authorship as being prominent and mine not so prominent ~ much like on this site's quotations with the bold left-side border-strip. 

Sorry - I get confused by the way you lay out your posts - I find it very hard to read with the disjointed and multiple quotes, lines, comments, bold and regular type all together.

Plastic said:

Deepthought said:

"How very dare you ~ you exepleting this, that and the other; lording your higher functioning superiority over those of us with lower functioning autism for being inferior with our understanding of others, and that we should be prepared to get hurt ~ on a blood-covered support website for vulnerable Autistic people!!! Expleting get a grip you expleting so and so!!!"  

I can't tell if you're being serious or not - if you are, then you're complaining about not being able to walk by a pride of Lions and how dare they eat you. 

Yes I am being entirely serious ~ but your ideological map is not the sociological territory I am describing to you.

I have just been describing other perspectives that have had relevance for other people, and the consequential realities that were involved for them.

This has not been an argument about your perspective nor either a complaint, keeping in mind that the topic of this thread is "Functioning Labels - Open Discussion" and this is what I have been "discussing" with you in terms of what I have borne witness to.

My sincere apologies for giving any impression that this discussion was anything other than objective observation and comparison involving past events. :-)

Sorry, I'm struggling to understand your syntax; so, it's difficult to know what you're trying to convey in your writing. 

Getting to understand ‘and’ comprehend different systems of thought can be difficult, but every problem is a solution in disguise just waiting to be recognised. :-)

The term “low-functioning” dates back to 1968 and William Goldfarb, Nathan Goldfarb, and Ruth C. Pollack's categorisation of autistic children on the basis of their IQ and language. The term “high autistic” was used a few years later (1973). The criticism is that these measures are not related to autism, but to arbitrary notions of what is normal for neurotypicals.

My basic point is the diagnostic criteria for Autism Spectrum Disorder involves social support needs ~ as being:

1) Severe autism with low social abilities and thus high support needs

2) Moderate autism with intermediate social abilities and medium support needs

3) Mild autism involving high social abilities and low support needs

If you use oranges as a basis for describing apples, then you will always be operating from a false analogy; and an apple will always be faulted for not being an orange.

Yes of course ~ given that humans 'are' humans autistic or not and oranges are 'not' apples! Whereas an metaphorical analogy that would work is that autistic people are something like cooking apples, and neurotypical people are something like eating apples ~ in that ‘eating’ apples need no preparation to be ‘interacted’ with and ‘cooking’ apples do.

So your description of the diagnostic criteria as being, “to describe how easily or how well we could pass as one of them.” makes no sense and thus as you stated can always be faulted with sensible phenomena, being that autistic diagnostic criteria involves passing as being ‘Autistic’ ~ based upon the developmental reports and observations regarding autistic children and adults, with the comparative contrast involving the developmental norms of neurotypical children in becoming adults ~ hence then not passing for one of them. QED

Behaviourally and linguistically passing as a neurotypical person though, that involves social camouflaging and personal masking, which stops people getting a befitting diagnosis in terms of actually being on the diagnostic spectrum.

Deepthought said:

"How very dare you ~ you exepleting this, that and the other; lording your higher functioning superiority over those of us with lower functioning autism for being inferior with our understanding of others, and that we should be prepared to get hurt ~ on a blood-covered support website for vulnerable Autistic people!!! Expleting get a grip you expleting so and so!!!"  

I can't tell if you're being serious or not - if you are, then you're complaining about not being able to walk by a pride of Lions and how dare they eat you.   Don't they know you're low functioning?     Someone should force Lions to know they are not allowed to attack you.      Oh,,and to not be Lions.

How dare these high functioning people have the sense to avoid the situation.    It's so unfair.    

There's a real world out there.   The very best parents can do is prepare their children to avoid danger - and these days, that's a little more effort that The Tufty Club.

Humans are the top apex predator.   No amount of wishing people would be nice is going to change that.       Pretending people are 'evolved' doesn't make it so.

And banning people pointing it out seems to be somewhat ostrich-like.

The world is just one huge hospital; hence the need to triage.

I'm so glad I could do that for you Michael.

This made me laugh, Pikl. Thank you. I needed to laugh today!

Pikl said:

I have met many NTs who do not have any form of learning disability, that I'm surprised even remember how to breathe. Where the phrase " not having two brain cells to rub together" is rather apt.

Oh ok, I didn't realise that! I thought it had something to do with having a job.