Feeling down about work :(

I'd also like to ask about reasonable adjustments. This is a Social Model of Disability approach. The problem is we don't know what are reasonable adjustments? Os it that simple?

Can you provide a person on the spectrum with a workable support package tailored to their needs? Some apps are available to provide reminders and promps, but is that all it is.

Particularly I've yet to see anything under "reasonable adjustments" which resolves social interfacing difficulties.

I'm an able aspie, NHS diagnosis, but managing to pass off much of the time as "normal" - but believe me that just isn't enough to help me 'fit in'. My eye contact is an acute embarrassment, I look at people's mouths or anything distracting. This morning I was ridiculously fixated on a spot on someone's shirt. I cannot read facial expression. I've read books on body language - doesn't change my predicament much. And goodness knows what my own facial expression generates - all I know is from the number of comments about inappropriate expression and misunderstandings, I'm clearly not doing it right.

But where is that in NAS's definition of autism. And how do employers make 'reasonable adjustments' for it?

Thanks Avi Moderator for these observations.

I am aware that people with autism are involved in training, such as Ask Autism, but I think this particular thread illustrates the problem well.

NAS claims only 15% of people on the spectrum are in full time work (based on data gathered about a decade ago from a NAS members questionnaire). So always on my mind is who are these people with autism who advise on training in the workplace?

Aspidancer1986 is in a real full time work situation. How many real full time employed people are involved in making on line training materials? Or are they people with autism who cannot work or are in supported work placements? How many people in long term full time employed situations are available to NAS?

The dilemma for a lot of people on the spectrum who are in work is that the 'normal' definitions of autism may not seem obviously to apply to them. They appear most of the time to be coping.

If NAS uses similar people in preparing training packages fair enough. But if NAS presents people with more significant workplace limitations, that may not be what employers recognise in the employees they have.

It isn't necessarily productive to show employers the limitations of someone who may never hold down a full time job, because of the severity of their autism. It may not relate well to the contexts those in full time employment are engaged with.

I do wish NAS would be more transparent with this. I've heard of people having work place assessments that don't inform management of that individuals real day to day difficulties. Autism varies very widely from one individual to another. There isn't a stereotype.

This online course may also help your employer to better understand any sensory sensitivities that you may have. http://www.autism.org.uk/Our-services/Training-and-consultancy/Ask-autism/Online-modules/Autism-and-sensory-experiences.aspx

I thought I should expand on this business of the Triad.

I took the second page of NAS on What is Autism? - where they give illustrations of each of the three aspects of the Triad. Now this defines more marked autism. In such situations people may largely be governed by carers and family around them, and less so the wider world. What about people who are better able to go about in the real world - to what point is this explanation valid?

Granted this is different from the definitions used for employment, but these definitions are more likely to be found by people (managers?)wanting to find out more about autism.

Under Social Communication, the first thing mentioned is "have difficulty understanding gestures, facial expressions or tone of voice".

Two things strike me about that. There's nothing here or elsewhere about having difficulty making the right gestures, facial expressions and using the right tone of voice. That is just as important but NAS still seems blissfully unaware that it is a two-way phenomena.

Secondly it looks familiar as under Social Imagination we find "the subtle messages that can be put across by facial expressions and body language are missed".

Exactly how does that differ? And why is there nothing about generating the right facial expressions or body language?

Back to Social Communication, a lot of these things follow on from the first: "have difficulty knowing where to start or end a conversation and choosing topics to talk about" (which turns up again under social interaction - on social skills - start an inappropriate conversation).

Think for a moment. If you are missing social cues - gestures, body language, tone of voice, you aren't going to find it easy to initiate or end conversation.

Then "Use complex words and phrases, but may not fully understand what they mean" - is that accurate? Sophisticated vocabularly is common but is there no understanding of it? Is there confusion here with echolalia?

Then comes the classic: "be very literal in what they say and have difficulty understanding jokes, metaphors or sarcasm" may be confused by expressions like "that's cool". Well if you aren't attuned to social cues, and you don't get much practice at social intercourse, you may be easily caught out by double meanings, but to what degree are people on the spectrum totally incapable of understanding them, as compared to just a bit slow grasping them?

On Social Imagination - struggle to make and maintain friendships - well with all the foregoing you would expect that...but is this an absolute? Is it always the case?

"Find other people unpredictable and confusing" - how far is that dependent on not reading social cues? Social isolation. And is this a definition of everybody?

"Become withdrawn and seem uninterested in other people, appearing almost aloof" Again if you cannot do and use the social cues - body language, gestures, facial expression - you are likely to appear detached and out of it. Likewise "behave in what may seem an inappropriate manner".

The problem is that these are statements about autism behaviour on a website viewed by the public. That is what the public expect to see from us?

It is not difficult to understand the reactions Aspiedancer has encountered, such as other people expecting her to try to socialise, and not make excuses.

Aspiedancer's manager's issues are with where she sits in a room, seeming to be playing safe, not getting out of her comfort zone, being pushed to socialise more.....

What's not being understood here? Where are these things in the triad? And is she showing obvious traits like understanding gestures, difficulty starting conversation, being too literal, using complex words without understanding their meaning, struggling to make friendships, having a lower range of imagination which can be pursued rigidly and repetitively etc etc.

I do wonder if NAS really understands autism?

It is extraordinary how often this happens in the workplace - too much emphasis placed on socialising, and even if that's your disability, you're supposed to get over it and participate.

Part of the problem though is what people are being told about autism in the work place. I know I rant about this a lot, but somehow NAS has to wake up to this. NAS training packages for employers are largely Triad of Impairments based.

OK I know we all identify with the triad because it is what the AQ test is based on, but the point everyone misses is that it is a diagnostic tool, not a definition of lifestyle. Particularly it omits things which might be confused with other conditions especially schizophrenia, with which autism was often confused in the past. So it doesn't address sensory sensitivities, sensory overload, and many aspects of social interaction.

I suspect that on-line and tutored training courses on autism for the workplace, and a lot of the advice available on website, understates noise sensitivity and difficulty with social integration.

Like you I need to sit near a wall, mainly it is easier to cope with sensory issues, audio and visual, if they come from one direction. Also at social functions I prefer to be near a wall. I get accused of being anti-social, not mingling etc. If I was blind or deaf I wouldn't get this, why do I get this for autism?

I too have had the shouldn't use asperger's as an excuse, or aspergers doesn't adequately explain my behaviour. Of course it doesn't, because no-one is getting the right information.

It is down to ignorance and the sad fact that NAS isn't conveying these issues to management in their training packages. How do I know? Good question - as you can only find out what is in NAS training courses by paying to go on one!

I don't think we are consulted nearly enough on what those training packages should contain. But I can read what is accessible on autism in the workplace on the website, and I hear feedback from people who have been on the courses.

NAS is not helping.