New member, with questions for those who know their AUDHD

I’m going to leap in the deep end because so much of your experience resonates with me, although not necessarily with the same way of expressing them.

You’ll be aware that fairness and justice is an autistic trait, along with difficulty in dealing with people who say one thing and mean another. It seems to me that hypocrisy is both unfair and dishonest. As to whether condemnation of hypocrisy specifically is tied to specific cultures, I’d say not. I’m fairly sure it will be condemned in other cultures – two that spring to mind are Rome under the emperors and 1st century Judah.

You refer to self delusion, which I view as a different subject, because I doubt it’s responsible for all hypocrisy. For example, I view the major conspiracy theories as self-delusion. I have tried reason before now and found that most self-deluded people have very strong psychological defences and I’m not inclined to bash my head against that sort of brick wall, so I tend to withdraw if I can’t ignore.

Occasionally, if I don’t want to lose a friend, I’ll try to establish boundaries that a particular subject is off limits. I find they can’t maintain that constantly, so it comes down to how much I can tolerate. If it’s too much, or the subject is too important to me, I walk away rather than suffer the stress caused by putting up with it.

I recognise your guilt and found the works of Dorothy Rowe liberating, although it didn’t get rid of 100%. I’d recommend “Beyond Fear” and “Guide to Life”. 

I’m not as conscious of my calculations as you and mine tend to predictions based on a psychological behaviour, as psychology gave me the map I needed to navigate a dangerous world. Words are for me what calculations are for you – I can analyse the hell out of a piece of writing for bias, propaganda and faulty logic.  It sounds to me that you yearn for arguments which only take place on closed academic sites. Social media is better at expressing feelings or seeking information in my experience.

I very much appreciate your considered response

To further clarify perhaps, the ‘deluded’ term deserves some explanation.. you’ve raised a point that it can and should be considered in correlation. 

For myself, the term itself took a while to arrive to. Or it ought better be described as a term its matured into.

Without unloading the sandbox of explanation, it’s all just eventually, for me, distilled down into self delusion at scale.

..its not that it’s a surprise it’s a part of the human psyche, its the scale at which it’s persists and known alternatives are ignored for a chosen perspective. This isn’t a flat earthers vs the world kinda thing or I’m a talisman for the truth. It’s just, on average, most of the time, it’s a lie.

.. whatever it is, whoever it is. Mathematically, interacting with people. We have the chose to ignore it. And we do.

most of the time.

.. that’s my query.. How do really know a true socia value.

For sombody like me, that’s one of around 10 ‘files requireing re-consideration’ that hang around for longer than a year or two.

I’ve battled that exact issue since I can remember, and I’m 41. It’s just easier to articulate now - but still not easy

• Thanks again,

I will look into the book suggestions also. 

Lastly, your last point is perhaps a premonition. I spent sometime after visiting this forum and found the Mensa site. So I’ve enquired and might be pre-elligable but I kinda like the idea of going through all the exams anyway and seeing where I’m at. And then maybe join a few of these ultra specific autistic for days discussion groups, with luck!

I'll be interested to know how you find the Mensa forum. Don't get your hopes up - the self-declared Mensa people I encountered struck me as very narrowly focussed. To be truthful, I found many NT academics much more interesting. 

There used to many good places for sustained multi-disciplinary discussion before social media took over - the old Yahoo groups and later, some web fora. If I wanted good, focussed conversation, I'd look on Substack or in the depths of Reddit.

When you originally mention self-delusion it was in the context of hypocrisy. If you're talking about it in another context, I'm afraid you'd have to be more specific. As for social values - as mentioned before, although I agree they are culture-specific, as I've said, some things pop up in many cultures, but it depends which value.

Books and films? I've read too much over the decades. Reading psychology opened up a map I've used to negotiate the world, but I don't think I can point to one particular psychologist after Rowe and Robin Skynner. As for happy fiction: something violence-free, with a good plot, good characterisation, imagination, humour and a good ending. 

I tend to feel motivated and happy when I write, and especially so when I find connections between things or something that feels like it was made up, such as Eugene Faberge's flight from Bolshevic Russia.

I think I just did answer that

I understand your understanding your showing me at least, is that of a heavily personal and human perspective?

I know you’ll have others and that’s a given,  insider if the subject, but for me, the logic fallacy of the delusion can be found in meaningful and articulable ways across so many forms of industry and society, there’s barely anything that isn’t in some way skewed..

For instance, it would be my assertion that AUDHD, isn’t a thing.. it’s a thing NOW under these circumstances, and given our best understanding of the physiological aspects of it.. it’s ‘emergence’ isn’t also new.. it’s a label. That’s we’ve had to affirm to be able to talk about this stuff. For whatever reasons and rationale you’d like..

For instance.. freedom?

it’s relative.. are we free?

Who do you ask and what is their motivation? and belief suddenly your steps away from lizard people and being a flat earther.. 

There’s a line in society that’s acceptable, there’s a line that’s preferable, and those preferences are wildly skewed in everyone.

What’s acceptable is skewed to a lesser degree.

What I’d like is for people to at least be able to have a conversation about these things.. 

I suppose the answer to the Freedom question is Yes, with caveats.. I just can’t help but think some of these caveats are bigger and more socially problematic than most others do.

.. and that same extrapolation boils down to fast food advertising, public education, role models..

All that being said, you’d think my real life response to this would be entirely dystopian but it’s not. It’s going further and further from that as I’m studying more and more about the Bible, its meaning and how it’s changed, it’s obvious players but it’s obvious unexplainable insight into the Human System.

I appreciate your time, one final question that might weirdly help..

In your life, when it comes to Books and Films ( stories in general ).. the ones you find most inspiring specifically?. As oppose to generally entertaining in a more conventional way..

Does how a story is presented, in fiction vs non fiction make a difference?

Only stories, books, film that you can specifically attribute to making you feel more motivated, happier about life, inspired!.. or is there zero correlation.?

Why people prefer their beliefs to reality is often tied up with where they live and what their families' believe; their social identity in sociological terms. They perceive attempts to change their mind as a personal attack. 

As to why you posted to this forum - only you can answer that.

Framing my canundrum as not understanding “why, on average, do the lightbulbs just never wanna be changed?”

Is about as well as a synopsis works.

Obvously it leads with the assumption that the statement is within itself true.

which it isn’t.. it is for me, and others but it can’t be said to be entirely a universal truth. 

An answer you might prefer is to the question of why did I make this assertion here.. in this way in this forum? And perhaps why now?.

What are my motivations?. 

Truth be told, 

I’m as interested as much as how people interact with me, as much as what they actually say.. it used to be much more so.. but re-discovering the power of words in my late 20’s, that opened up a re-discovery of language that I’m still in awe with today.

While I’m at it, I can categorically state that I’m not a pessimist. I’m aware it can come across that way. I find stunning beauty in so many things.. and I’ve barely scratched the surface of what life is about..

- at least that’s how it feels. 

Ive found a grounding with my cognition and I’m able to be comfortable in my own skin. I use it for good as and when I can.. but as previously mentioned, a pursuit into difficult problems is seemingly a dietary requirement, for me. 

It sounds to me (sorry if I'm wrong) that you're more interested in the problem of dealing with the effects of self-delusion in day-to-day life, rather than psychological theories about it. (I'm afraid I can't help with dating issues).

 My closest friend had almost exactly the same problem with her father than you had with yours. It drove her to distraction because he ignored his very real illness and all medical advice, and died within a few years of diagnosis (not diabetes). A formally close friend of my descended into conspiract theiories after retirment gave her the time to spend online. This problem has been knocking around for decades in the NT world, mainly (in the past) considering the question of reversing brain washing, especially for people trapped in cults. The prevalence of conspiracy theories has expanded that in all directions, and you might want to look at reliable articles on cults, brain washing and rescuing people in cults.

The short answer lies in an old psychology joke: "how many psychologists does it take to change a lightbulb?"  Answer: only one, but the lightbulb has to want to change. Confirmation bias is emotional rather than rational, and you may be aware of research that has shown that people invest in beliefs that appeal to them emotionally and that reason does not touch that motivation. (It's probably not just NTs, but I'm not aware of research based on ND). Once you realise that reason will not alter self-delusion, it enables you to stop banging your head against a brick wall. Most people will only change slowly and the first few steps are often because someone they trust/love/are invested in says something that makes them doubt. However, in the early steps of doubt, they become more extreme about ignoring/believing because they are frightened to step into a different world.

Hey,

To be clear, the hypocrisy is real, it just distills down into self delusion, imo.

For many it remains as hypocrisy.. but if your hypocritical ‘subset’ of people.. are like this for say a prolonged period of time, perhaps years at a time,

Semantically for me, it matures into a more umbrella term of self-delusion.

For instance, my father never took his diabetic diagnosis seriously, he didn’t when he was diagnosed. He didn’t when it got more serious.

He never took it seriously, and it shortened his life by 10-15 years.. My father was ‘on paper in today’s society’ - an intelligent and educated man.

.. so with regards to his own health, in the end, when all of his behaviour is considered, all the hospital visits, the tablets and injections and his diet and non existent excercise regime.. in my mind, it narrows down a delusional prognosis.

In this case, it wasn’t isolation, this ‘impending doom’ of long term poor diabetes managment was never really taken seriously or mitigated. Attention was placed elsewhere.. delusion and hypocrasy was present elsewhere, obviously so.

To what degree does my father’s example fall into delusion? It wouldn’t seem obviously a hypocritical existence, but in the individual moments, it is.

..in the conversations, the queries into diet, the assertions to others for diet, physical exercise.

Now my father’s example isn’t the ground work for this thesis. It’s one of a hundred examples which could be cited over a long term period.

I appreciate the feedback on the Mensa stuff.

I would assure you, if I passed the exams, ( which I might not ) I would stick out like a sore thumb at these ‘gifted’ people meetings.

One of my attributes I’m most proud of is my learnt ability to mask and adapt to different social circumstances.
It’s one of the hardest things I’ve had to learn and it’s utility is unending. I can go out and buy weed off a guy or negotiate a fight in a pub, and use suitable vernacular to suit the moment and suit those in attendance.. to look after myself, while knowingly NOT pulling the trigger on blowing things up by saying the wrong thing, or embarrassing people.

Which has always been incredibly easy for me to do. It’s a ‘weapon’ I very rarely deploy.

At face value, I look like a totally normal dude I suppose, I’m lucky to be considered handsome and well built, tattoos and scars and a life experience, this is a suitable disguise to navigate the world. I would be considered on the quiet side.

I am fully aware that if things worked out differently for me in my upbringing and decisions made, I wouldnt have had this avenue of being able to ‘mix in the real World’ or at least definitely not to the same Degree. I’ve had a series of life events that would genuinely be hard to believe but these have contributed in some very meaningful ways to my ‘development’.

I don’t know what the approved terminology is in this case but for what it’s worth, there’s 2-3 daily masks and 2-3 masks I put on for various unusual Occasions.

Something that doesn’t seem discussed much on This forum in a meaningful way, Understanding how to have a HOPE of getting a girlfriend. Or a boyfriend or a partner.

I needed to at LEAST get some sort of a version of myself that could handle a ‘date’ and not come across as an ultra geek or otherwise ‘introvert nerdy type’. That was understood to be a limiting factor with ‘women’ It turns out..

( you grow up and realise it isn’t but you know what I mean )

I learnt early on what I thought women would want and I made that happen. ( that’s not how it is today, but it certainly was at the start )

Dealing with the opposite sex or generally with people who are attracted to you, or you are attracted to is a whole different conversation

Going back to the baseline query..

Using a simple common example such as my fathers or a basic medial case:

”You have friend who drinks too much”

In conversation you listen to them and you know that THEY know they are lying to themselves. You know they are excusing their bad choices and your aware their track record in their ‘assurances’ is also extremely probable to be false.

How do we decide where to draw the line between interjecting, or taking the easy road and allowing them to live in their lies?

Accounting for as much of the socially accepted rules of interaction.. where do we draw the line?

.. if I do nothing, I battle with my conscience about if I’m doing right or wrong.

.. if a do somthing then exactly how this is done seems to be under more scrutiny than its existence in principle.

I hope I’m explaining the point properly.

It’s a simple question of morality, but where and with whom do we ‘decide’ on a baseline with this?

.. because it turns out.. a willingness to offer advice requires a set of skills that arnt prevalent in society. ‘Advice’ has to be tailored and delivered in such a specific way to be received as its delivery is intended. To at least have a hope of enacting change.… despite this, most people STILL choose to ignore.

I suspect the obvious answer is the real answer, most people prefer to live a delusion of self.

Hey,

To be clear, the hypocrisy is real, it just distills down into self delusion, imo.

For many it remains as hypocrisy.. but if your hypocritical ‘subset’ of people.. are like this for say a prolonged period of time, perhaps years at a time,

Semantically for me, it matures into a more umbrella term of self-delusion.

For instance, my father never took his diabetic diagnosis seriously, he didn’t when he was diagnosed. He didn’t when it got more serious.

He never took it seriously, and it shortened his life by 10-15 years.. My father was ‘on paper in today’s society’ - an intelligent and educated man.

.. so with regards to his own health, in the end, when all of his behaviour is considered, all the hospital visits, the tablets and injections and his diet and non existent excercise regime.. in my mind, it narrows down a delusional prognosis.

In this case, it wasn’t isolation, this ‘impending doom’ of long term poor diabetes managment was never really taken seriously or mitigated. Attention was placed elsewhere.. delusion and hypocrasy was present elsewhere, obviously so.

To what degree does my father’s example fall into delusion? It wouldn’t seem obviously a hypocritical existence, but in the individual moments, it is.

..in the conversations, the queries into diet, the assertions to others for diet, physical exercise.

Now my father’s example isn’t the ground work for this thesis. It’s one of a hundred examples which could be cited over a long term period.

I appreciate the feedback on the Mensa stuff.

I would assure you, if I passed the exams, ( which I might not ) I would stick out like a sore thumb at these ‘gifted’ people meetings.

One of my attributes I’m most proud of is my learnt ability to mask and adapt to different social circumstances.
It’s one of the hardest things I’ve had to learn and it’s utility is unending. I can go out and buy weed off a guy or negotiate a fight in a pub, and use suitable vernacular to suit the moment and suit those in attendance.. to look after myself, while knowingly NOT pulling the trigger on blowing things up by saying the wrong thing, or embarrassing people.

Which has always been incredibly easy for me to do. It’s a ‘weapon’ I very rarely deploy.

At face value, I look like a totally normal dude I suppose, I’m lucky to be considered handsome and well built, tattoos and scars and a life experience, this is a suitable disguise to navigate the world. I would be considered on the quiet side.

I am fully aware that if things worked out differently for me in my upbringing and decisions made, I wouldnt have had this avenue of being able to ‘mix in the real World’ or at least definitely not to the same Degree. I’ve had a series of life events that would genuinely be hard to believe but these have contributed in some very meaningful ways to my ‘development’.

I don’t know what the approved terminology is in this case but for what it’s worth, there’s 2-3 daily masks and 2-3 masks I put on for various unusual Occasions.

Something that doesn’t seem discussed much on This forum in a meaningful way, Understanding how to have a HOPE of getting a girlfriend. Or a boyfriend or a partner.

I needed to at LEAST get some sort of a version of myself that could handle a ‘date’ and not come across as an ultra geek or otherwise ‘introvert nerdy type’. That was understood to be a limiting factor with ‘women’ It turns out..

( you grow up and realise it isn’t but you know what I mean )

I learnt early on what I thought women would want and I made that happen. ( that’s not how it is today, but it certainly was at the start )

Dealing with the opposite sex or generally with people who are attracted to you, or you are attracted to is a whole different conversation

Going back to the baseline query..

Using a simple common example such as my fathers or a basic medial case:

”You have friend who drinks too much”

In conversation you listen to them and you know that THEY know they are lying to themselves. You know they are excusing their bad choices and your aware their track record in their ‘assurances’ is also extremely probable to be false.

How do we decide where to draw the line between interjecting, or taking the easy road and allowing them to live in their lies?

Accounting for as much of the socially accepted rules of interaction.. where do we draw the line?

.. if I do nothing, I battle with my conscience about if I’m doing right or wrong.

.. if a do somthing then exactly how this is done seems to be under more scrutiny than its existence in principle.

I hope I’m explaining the point properly.

It’s a simple question of morality, but where and with whom do we ‘decide’ on a baseline with this?

.. because it turns out.. a willingness to offer advice requires a set of skills that arnt prevalent in society. ‘Advice’ has to be tailored and delivered in such a specific way to be received as its delivery is intended. To at least have a hope of enacting change.… despite this, most people STILL choose to ignore.

I suspect the obvious answer is the real answer, most people prefer to live a delusion of self.

Books and films? I've read too much over the decades. Reading psychology opened up a map I've used to negotiate the world, but I don't think I can point to one particular psychologist after Rowe and Robin Skynner. As for happy fiction: something violence-free, with a good plot, good characterisation, imagination, humour and a good ending. 

I tend to feel motivated and happy when I write, and especially so when I find connections between things or something that feels like it was made up, such as Eugene Faberge's flight from Bolshevic Russia.

I think I just did answer that

I understand your understanding your showing me at least, is that of a heavily personal and human perspective?

I know you’ll have others and that’s a given,  insider if the subject, but for me, the logic fallacy of the delusion can be found in meaningful and articulable ways across so many forms of industry and society, there’s barely anything that isn’t in some way skewed..

For instance, it would be my assertion that AUDHD, isn’t a thing.. it’s a thing NOW under these circumstances, and given our best understanding of the physiological aspects of it.. it’s ‘emergence’ isn’t also new.. it’s a label. That’s we’ve had to affirm to be able to talk about this stuff. For whatever reasons and rationale you’d like..

For instance.. freedom?

it’s relative.. are we free?

Who do you ask and what is their motivation? and belief suddenly your steps away from lizard people and being a flat earther.. 

There’s a line in society that’s acceptable, there’s a line that’s preferable, and those preferences are wildly skewed in everyone.

What’s acceptable is skewed to a lesser degree.

What I’d like is for people to at least be able to have a conversation about these things.. 

I suppose the answer to the Freedom question is Yes, with caveats.. I just can’t help but think some of these caveats are bigger and more socially problematic than most others do.

.. and that same extrapolation boils down to fast food advertising, public education, role models..

All that being said, you’d think my real life response to this would be entirely dystopian but it’s not. It’s going further and further from that as I’m studying more and more about the Bible, its meaning and how it’s changed, it’s obvious players but it’s obvious unexplainable insight into the Human System.

I appreciate your time, one final question that might weirdly help..

In your life, when it comes to Books and Films ( stories in general ).. the ones you find most inspiring specifically?. As oppose to generally entertaining in a more conventional way..

Does how a story is presented, in fiction vs non fiction make a difference?

Only stories, books, film that you can specifically attribute to making you feel more motivated, happier about life, inspired!.. or is there zero correlation.?

Why people prefer their beliefs to reality is often tied up with where they live and what their families' believe; their social identity in sociological terms. They perceive attempts to change their mind as a personal attack. 

As to why you posted to this forum - only you can answer that.

Framing my canundrum as not understanding “why, on average, do the lightbulbs just never wanna be changed?”

Is about as well as a synopsis works.

Obvously it leads with the assumption that the statement is within itself true.

which it isn’t.. it is for me, and others but it can’t be said to be entirely a universal truth. 

An answer you might prefer is to the question of why did I make this assertion here.. in this way in this forum? And perhaps why now?.

What are my motivations?. 

Truth be told, 

I’m as interested as much as how people interact with me, as much as what they actually say.. it used to be much more so.. but re-discovering the power of words in my late 20’s, that opened up a re-discovery of language that I’m still in awe with today.

While I’m at it, I can categorically state that I’m not a pessimist. I’m aware it can come across that way. I find stunning beauty in so many things.. and I’ve barely scratched the surface of what life is about..

- at least that’s how it feels. 

Ive found a grounding with my cognition and I’m able to be comfortable in my own skin. I use it for good as and when I can.. but as previously mentioned, a pursuit into difficult problems is seemingly a dietary requirement, for me. 

It sounds to me (sorry if I'm wrong) that you're more interested in the problem of dealing with the effects of self-delusion in day-to-day life, rather than psychological theories about it. (I'm afraid I can't help with dating issues).

 My closest friend had almost exactly the same problem with her father than you had with yours. It drove her to distraction because he ignored his very real illness and all medical advice, and died within a few years of diagnosis (not diabetes). A formally close friend of my descended into conspiract theiories after retirment gave her the time to spend online. This problem has been knocking around for decades in the NT world, mainly (in the past) considering the question of reversing brain washing, especially for people trapped in cults. The prevalence of conspiracy theories has expanded that in all directions, and you might want to look at reliable articles on cults, brain washing and rescuing people in cults.

The short answer lies in an old psychology joke: "how many psychologists does it take to change a lightbulb?"  Answer: only one, but the lightbulb has to want to change. Confirmation bias is emotional rather than rational, and you may be aware of research that has shown that people invest in beliefs that appeal to them emotionally and that reason does not touch that motivation. (It's probably not just NTs, but I'm not aware of research based on ND). Once you realise that reason will not alter self-delusion, it enables you to stop banging your head against a brick wall. Most people will only change slowly and the first few steps are often because someone they trust/love/are invested in says something that makes them doubt. However, in the early steps of doubt, they become more extreme about ignoring/believing because they are frightened to step into a different world.