Terminology

Misophonia is new to me:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c04vx47gx91o

I suspect that rather a lot of us have this although I assume it wouldn't be diagnosed separately, but who knows?

ArchaeC said:

Also, some non-autistic people may have reached the threshold for an autism diagnosis in one area, but not another. We can’t possibly know what they are experiencing.

Yes, I don't see it as a 'them and us' situation as there will be lots of shades of grey in between 'NTs' and 'NDs'.

I simply can't sum up the characteristics of an NT.

B said:

I don't know how to tell who these people are and I don't know them well if at all so I don't know, for example, if they may have just one condition that's not obvious but still makes them ND.

I don’t know who these people are either, and I also don’t know what many neurodivergent people (who are autistic with one or more other neurodivergent conditions/or are not autistic) are experiencing. Also, some non-autistic people may have reached the threshold for an autism diagnosis in one area, but not another. We can’t possibly know what they are experiencing. Most of us are limited to our experience of what other people around us tell us, or reading about some aspects of their experience in books or online research papers.We can’t accurately base our knowledge on that.

B said:

I much prefer the use of the opposite of each condition eg. autism -v- allistic as it's not a generalisation but a specific term.

I prefer to use the specific term too.

I'm glad to hear that.

Wib said:

I think a lot of people would benefit from reading !!

I agree.  I've learnt about this from members here in the past.

I just wanted to say I read the article you linked in your post it was very good and interesting read that I think a lot of people would benefit from reading !!

When people ask questions about NTs (in general) I find that difficult to reply to.

My understanding of a neurotypical is that they are not neurodivergent ie they aren't autistic, don't have tourettes, ADHD or any of the other 'conditions' listed.

I don't know how to tell who these people are and I don't know them well if at all so I don't know, for example, if they may have just one condition that's not obvious but still makes them ND.

For example, bipolar is being recognised now as neurodiverent so presumably people with bipolar aren't NT.  

How can I tell who, from the general population, doesn't have bipolar so therefore, how can I generalise when asked (especially here) about NTs?

I much prefer the use of the opposite of each condition eg. autism -v- allistic as it's not a generalisation but a specific term.

I think people should be able to refer to their own autism or neurodivergence as they like (as long as it isn't offensive) but I don't think terminology like that should be used to describe another person. I don't particularly like the term either and I wouldn't want someone to call me that.

Hehe to quote Steven Pinker " Thinking is on a lot of people's minds at the moment"

Pleased you can rest easier :-)   

The less stressed people like us are the better!

Thank you for your considered reply. 

Phased said:

The tricky thing may be that for a long time we have been "duped" for so long, our confidence and capability to decide which of these things are taking place might be reduced

That is the very thing that causes issues and for me, it is something that needs worked on continuously. I do agree that we are well placed to assess the evidence or lack of evidence for a “truth” or a “perceived truth”. Thought provoking stuff Phased I will rest easier tonight. 

PS I think that you communicate very well - just my opinion of course!

hehe I base that on our being able to communicate together without arguing - sharing the possibility that you or i might both be "stuck" in some ways and both of us are open to resolving this...

Thanks for the reassurance ArchaeC  I believe that those stylistic similarities and differences that you pick up on are what their written words reveal about their thinking and behaviour and also our own.

If you and I cannot immediately make sense of them there may be a variety of different reasons.

I'll suggest a few if that's OK?

You or I are "stuck" in not being able to properly understand what is a verifiable universal  "truth" they are expressing (for one reason or another).  If that is the case then conversations with others might enable us to become "unstuck" as a consequence. (there are other ways of course however that's a wider conversation :-) )

They might be expressing something that is not universally and reasonably verifiable as a truth however they are "stuck" in that and wish to make their truth more universal by working really hard by fair means or foul to make us believe it too.  There is then the possibility of one carefully and respectfully looking to help them become "unstuck" ( whilst trying oneself to remember the first suggestion made above..). 

The actual topic of conversation might not be possible to refine to a universal "truth" - both perspectives are reasonably valid given the available information.  Both parties might be better off, at that point, might be better off by acknowledging that, searching for more evidence and information and getting together later (this can be even a few milliseconds - like "oh I've just remembered" or "Oh, I've just had this thought" or a day "I've slept/ cogitated/ on that and what i now think is" or dashing off to a computer "I've found this article/ paper that says..." !!!) and discussing it in this context .

I figure there are lots more possibilites I'm not clever or experienced enough to articulate by typing it down at present.

I will share one tho':

In practice a lot of the time neither parties acknowledge the possibility of being "stuck", have a flaming argument which reinforces this and progress recedes.

I personally think that autistic people (especially post late diagnosis) are very handily placed to appreciate these matters as our very nature of our brains and our experience calls upon us to examine the possibilities I've outlined above.   Possibly even help wider society in such matters.

The tricky thing may be that for a long time we have been "duped" for so long, our confidence and capability to decide which of these things are taking place might be reduced.

Personally I am practicing to improve in this area.  Hehe - have to spend our time doing something.

Best wishes!

Thank you for your kind words Phased  You describe very well how I can be in face to face conversations too. You definitely are not deluded over your disregard of the “not clever enough” hypothesis.

I’ll have to consider the vagus nerve thing, as that feeling is more to do with how I ‘feel’ colours and textures, rather than the perceived meaning of the word. 

I don’t know if it is an autistic thing or not to have varying written and comprehension skills. I can spot stylistic similarities and differences in others people’s posts instantly, yet not always make sense of them. If so, I’m wondering if I’m losing the plot, sleep deprived, stressed or not, rather than being autistic, given that the double empathy hypothesis suggests I should be able to communicate better here rather than in a non-autistic world. 

Phased said:

Maybe one can become unstuck?

Perhaps. I’m looking into this. 

Phased said:

Maybe the likes of you and me thinking automatically that what we feel and think is wrong might be problematic is the problem here?

Very true..

don't be distressed ArchaeC  I have just read your post on another thread re; this and I completely empathise that stressors etc effect comprehension

For this same reason i find real time face to face conversations, interviews etc troublesome 

I tend to get quickly confused, overloaded and panic!

personally i think this is likely to be an autistic trait - perhaps relating to how much of the social context I might be missing out on

an alternate hypothesis that I am just not "clever enough" doesn't seem to hold sway (hehe hopefully that's not self delusion!)

However I definitely notice a lot more when my expectations of myself aren't met than when I'm doing OK and like yourself get really frustrated by it!

I am of the opinion that such terms as "neurospicy" might be deliberately chosen to convey several possible meanings.

For some it is a lighthearted way of identifying theirs and others difference or "neurodivergence".

The people using the term then are engaging in a conversation that might "dangle a bait and hook" for the recipient.  In context of which the responder to the term might "dangle another hook" in reply to see what the initial person means by this.  

(I think the games of "teasing" insight and sharing info come from fears of rejection and/or manipulation sometimes.)

Or one might just ask them what they mean by the term "neurospicy" maybe before making a decision about it?  

The thing about reading what that vagus nerve feeling is telling us is perhaps dependent on the situation we find ourselves in and how we personally have become used to relating to it.

Travelling in a car full of stolen goods and a police car appears in the mirror and that feeling for me would be fear.  For some it would be excitement (or so the movies portray it anyway..)

I personally think that for whatever reason one can become "stuck" or habituated towards interpreting that vagus nerve activation in one particular way.  Maybe linked with particular events that have shaped one's body based psychology and emotion towards a particular bias.

Maybe one can become unstuck?

Oh dear, I’m so sorry about that. I keep getting it wrong and I’m so frustrated 

I don’t know how to evaluate it as it isn’t a gut feeling in the sense of unease about danger/boundaries/morality/harm/goodness/luck and that sort of thing. What other sorts of things can there be? 

I put joking aside in the body of my answer :-)

I think you might have misapprehended my capacity to empathise ArchaeC 

You, I believe, are describing experiences where the vagus nerve sends body info to the brain, the brain interprets it (emotionally), I suggest that it is possible to iinterpret different types of interoceptive gut feelings in a wider sense.

I imply not evacuation but evaluation :-)

Your nasty feeling through the torso would be easier to describe than mine, but I’m not going to attempt it here, though vivid image I may have!

Phased said:

that feeling you describe i know think of as being a "gut feeling" of something being wrong in a wider sense

I know what a “gut feeling” is and the word “neurospicy” doesn’t give me it. It’s more of a hmm …a feeling of thousands of micro jabs in a swoop down my insides…well that’s not exactly it, because it doesn’t really cause pain, but I can’t describe it any other way. 

Phased said:

Then comes the often even harder part of what one might do about

Yours may evacuate, mine self-dissipates.

Oh thanks for the tip, that's very helpful on the bigger threads!

My pet peeve is the perennial confusion between neurodiversity and neurodivergence. Neurodiversity is merely a description of the natural variation in human neurotypes. Neurodivergence refers to those neurotypes that diverge from the culturally dominant neurotype. So I am neurodivergent and my non-neurodivergent wife is another example of human neurodiversity.