I think you've got a point but I do think people with autism are significantly more likely to have these difficulties. We often (not always) have lower paid or no jobs, aren't in relationships etc. So yess agreed NTs may have similar issues at times. But I think when you pair this with communication differences and narrower interests etc, the prevalence for autistic people is much higher.
I think a lot of my problems in and with groups, is that they talk about things that I have no interest in at all, like soap opera's, so not only do I not contribute, but it automaticly makes me an outsider and I think this would happen to an NT that wan't a soap watcher. Even if you go to special interest groups, people talk about other stuff and I wonder if this confuses an ND? The ND will be trying to stick to the interest they're all there to share and may not always understand that others will talk about other stuff too?
Yes I have experienced that. Now that I am older and retired, it hasn't happened for a while. Perhaps past experience has helped me become realistic about expectations within groups and friendship relationships, or maybe I am not joining so many new groups now.
I'm very interested by your stance because you have stated very bluntly on here before that your communication style is down to your autism and you won't be changing it..... But you think the rest of us should???? Interesting.
My approach has actually proven very successful because people know I can engage in small talk, understand their little rules and games they play in conversations but know that if they ask me a factual question or opinion then they will get the ungarnished truth as I see it.
This was most useful in my project management when I can cut straight to the chase about why things are going off course and dissect the bulldropping responses to expose why someone is not doing their job.
Of course it doesn't make me popular with the people who were used to hiding behind their failures by casting blame on others, but it gets the job done and the upper management have my back.
I'm also self aware to know when to be blunt and when to try to be accommodating. I'm not a machine and have learned to develop a "feel" for the conversation by reading other peoples reactions and tone then can identify when it is time to stay quiet or offer platitudes.
I don't use that approach here often as I think cutting to the chase is more important to the ways of processing for most autists.
I think I'm going to leave this discussion here because it is now annoying me.
OK, I'm a little dissapointed but this is your choice.
It has been an interesting subject and our views differ slightly, but not as much as you may think.
I'm very interested by your stance because you have stated very bluntly on here before that your communication style is down to your autism and you won't be changing it..... But you think the rest of us should???? Interesting.
I think if you go back to my original response to you I stated that I didn't think there was nothing autistic people could work on. But it shouldn't be everything. That mindset is why mental health issues are so much more prevalent in autistic people.
You talk about physical adaptations. Do I think that it could become regulation for newer buildings to take sensory differences into account with less strong lighting and better noise proofing - yes I do. Do I expect all buildings to be adapted to that right now. No I don't. There are other adaptations that can be made such as glasses that react to light, ear defenders and noise cancelling headphones. These adaptations are cheap and shouldn't bother other people.
You mention employers - do I think they should be trained in neurodiversity - absolutely I do. There is a reason that employment for autistic people is so low. And no they are not all going to learn how to not be autistic. But with knowledge from employers reasonable adjustments could be made where these people become assets instead of failures.
I think I'm going to leave this discussion here because it is now annoying me.
So we'll just stop bothering with wheelchair ramps and similar because it's only a minority that needs them?
OK, let's use the urguement the way you are pushing it.
Lets spend billions making all NTs attend mandatory ND training courses, change all lights in offices in case they have light sensitive NTs, shut down noisy factories in case they hurt noise sensitive NTs etc.
There is a practical element that has to come into all of this. We are working to shift the ND mindset to accommodate us but expecting them to do all the changing is unrealistic.
I will absolutely never agree with your opinion on this I'm afraid.
I'm not asking you to. I've seen this from an employers side of things and believe I can explain why is won't happen the way you want it to. The disruption to do it quickly will never be allowed.
What is basically being suggested here is that people pretend they are not autistic and they should never ever have to do that.
I'm only talking about this point in time. We are shifting the awareness and acceptance of autistic understanding but if you want to integrate into society NOW then you are almost certainly going to have to act like one of them to be accepted.
I'm not saying it is a good thing. It is a statement of the current reality.
For most of the adults here the acceptance we crave is unlikely to arrive in our lifetime in anything more than a small scale. What I am advocating is for people to see this, decide if they want to make the effort and to continue to work on fighting for our cause in a way that is going to be productive for the next generations.
Reality sucks and I'm not afraid to tell it like it is.
I don't do groups either and have always been on the outside of them and never part of the inner circle, but this has been for a variety of reasons, not just autism, things like class, when I've been the only eorking class person in a group of middle class people. Age, I've often been either the youngest or oldest person in a group. Sometimes relationship status, either being in one or not being in one has put me on the edge of a group. Money has also been an issue, more well off friends haven't always appreciated that I can't do certain things because I can't afford it.
I think it's easy to think that every unsucesful social interaction is due to ND, but I don't think it always is, there's a whiole load of other stuff mixed up in it too that may not be about ND and an NT might have similar problems.
That last bit. So true. Absolutely always me that initiates doing something which ironically makes me very anxious. After a while I realise they're probably not that interested. Stop asking. Friendship fizzles out completely. Happened more times than I can possibly mention.
I don't join groups, but here are examples of my work and personal social interactions over my lifetime:
Work: Start new job. Mask in order to be accepted. Establish a common interest with a colleague. Enjoy talking about interests and receiving good feedback on my work. Get more comfortable, start to unmask, enjoy humour. Receive criticism because I'm too loud, talk too long, or have made one mistake (although others regularly do "banter", throw items around, play on their phones and make many more errors). Become distressed and shut down. Get another job. Cycle starts again.
Friendships: Mask in order to be accepted & establish a common interest, enjoy being with new friend, invite them to home or meet up somewhere multiple times, start to unmask, friend starts not being available, I start to realise it's almost always been me asking them to meet up, I get distressed by feeling rejected, I stop contacting them and they don't bother with me either.
Thankfully I am now retired and have a good relationship with my partner.
I am with Expecto Patronum on this. The Equalities Act is very very clear. The principle that someone is not disadvantaged by a disability covers all types of disabilities including Autism as well as mobility issues.
Wheelchair users account for less than 0.1% of the population, yet the 99.9% have to accommodate them. The same should hold for a group that accounts for a sizeable 3%
So we'll just stop bothering with wheelchair ramps and similar because it's only a minority that needs them?
I will absolutely never agree with your opinion on this I'm afraid. Why shouldn't people take a minute to be adaptable to people with a disability.
Why should those people with those disabilities have their mental health affected in a significant way because they are putting so much energy into trying not to be "bad".
What is basically being suggested here is that people pretend they are not autistic and they should never ever have to do that.
My issue with this is that our behaviour isn't "bad", it is just different.
Looking at this from an NTs point of view, I think our behaviour is often seen as bad to them because:
- our attempts to contribute to conversations tend to break the flow of it - people don't know how to respond to the things we say and the things are also self centric. This will result in people feeling we are "killing the conversation" by participating.
- we often stare, have wierd expressions, stim or have tics which make people feel uncomfortable.
- some have volume issues when speaking, use a lot of quotes from film/tv/music or don't know when to stop talking, all of which makes people feel we are "being wierd".
- delays in processing questions, responding to others statements or emotional disregulation mean conversations are mixed up with answers / responses from questions from minutes ago and this disturbs the flow or confuses people.
- We often want to talk about our special interests when others don't, leaving them feeling dumped on by info they didn't want in the first place which can feel a bit hostile.
- our lack of understanding of social rules means we can often make mistakes, asking about things that upset people or saying things that are insensitive.
These are only a few examples of what makes us "bad" at social interactions and why we need to learn to know when to listen to criticism and grow from it.
Why should we completely change ourselves because others aren't particularly accepting?
The simple answer is that we are a small minority (about 3% in the general population I think) and not all of us have this social interaction issue - the real number affected is probably less than 1%.
Why should the other 99% of the population have to change how they do all their interacting to accomodate us? Sure it would be nice if they did but you are effectively asking 99 people to make a load of changes for the benefit of 1.
some things are inherently difficult and trying to change it would be incredibly mentally challenging.
Would it not be more sensible for that 1 person to learn how to interact acceptably? It is for our benefit after all.
I'm just trying for a reality check here.
Yes very much so. More with individuals than a whole group. But I definitely seem to do well for a while and then it all goes wrong.
My issue with this is that our behaviour isn't "bad", it is just different. Why should we completely change ourselves because others aren't particularly accepting? Why shouldn't we stim when we need to or show joy in our special interests? Nobody expects neurotypical people to change their "bad" behaviour. Only those that don't fit.
And when we are talking about traits that can actually be negative it can stop be asking a lot. Now I'm not saying that autistic people can't and shouldn't ever learn from their behaviour. But some things are inherently difficult and trying to change it would be incredibly mentally challenging. I find that when someone has criticised my behaviour - I then put a lot of effort into trying to repeat this behaviour and it takes so much mental energy, I just end up doing a load of other things that people don't like instead because my brain just cannot cope.
It would be best not to excessively mask, so that you can maintain a consistent appearance and people get to know you. It is the change that leads to a feeling of deception and undermines trust.
However, if you can't get accepted without unsustainable masking, you either need to find another group, or you have a problem and need to moderate involvement so you a can sustain it.
It seems to pivot on the transition between being criticised for bad behaviour and becoming distressed by it.
If we can learn that criticism can be a useful thing and use it to learn (where justified), grow (where needed) or reject with confidence (where valid) then it feeds into a positive growth loop instead.
I see many people here take any sort of negativity badly and either start to fight back or spiral into despair. This is a weakness as I see it which we can learn to swing to our advantage.
If we do not learn to recognise "bad" behaviour in ourselves and evaluate if it should be sustained then we are making the same mistakes over and over.
That is my take on it.
