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Identity cards

TheCatWoman

The new Home secretary is talking about introducing identity cards and maybe making it compulsory to carry them, outside of war, the IK has never had identity cards, we've never had to prove who we are to access services, or to provide proof of who we are when asked to by police. 

I remember when Tony Blair's government wanted to bring them in back in the 1999's-early 2000's, I opposed them then and I oppose them now, especially if they're compulsory. Part of the thinking is that we all carry different sorts of digital ID anyway so one more won't make any difference. Not all of us carry digital ID, I don't, my Mum dosen't, nor do some of my friends. We don't have smart phones, don't know how to use them, can't afford them, don't want them, so will we be made to have them, or will alternatives be provided?

Another issue with ID cards, is what will be on them and who will have access to that information? It would be great if you had an accident and were rushed to A&E unconcious and they could access your phone and get your medical records, but what if you were arrested or wrongly detained, or stopped and searched, or were the victim of a crime, would the police be able to access you rmedical records and decide, say that because you have a medical condition that your case warrents no further investigation?

One of the arguments is that only people here legally will be able to access services, like hosptials and education, that it will help to stop illegal migration. How long will be before criminals start making ID cards, just lke they do NI, driving licenses and passports? WIll we end up with a situation where an ID card is just another hoop to jump through when wanting to go about ones normal and legitimate business, will we end up needing 3 forms of photo ID? 

The civil liberties aspects of ID cards really worries me, what happens if our ID card get stolen or hacked, how will we prove who we are? What safeguards could there be? I know there will be many who will come out with the old chestnut that if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear, yeah right, so miscarriages of justice never happen? Or that they manage in other countries, I don't care, this is our country, a free country, thats fast becoming a tin pot dictatorship and will only get worse if this infringement goes ahead. 

  • in reply to TheCatWoman
    TheCatWoman said:
    I feel you have a very punishing attitude towards me and are more interested in disagreeing with anything I say than actually engaging with any issues I raise

    I apologise if I have made you feel this way.

    My approach to coversations like these is to provoke debate by giving a different viewpoint or to highlight that there are other aspects that may not have been considered.

    With things like carrying ID / smart devices etc I also wanted to help you understand that there is no getting away from it even when you really don't like it or find it difficult. The government don't care and it is in their interests so they will push it through.

    My angle of discussion here was to help you consider if your arguements against stood up to scrutiny.

    There is no intention of hostility in my responses, rather a push to help you consider angles that you may not have looked at or placed enough weight behind.

    I guess I am owning my feelings too - some can be a bit fatalistic but I have a lot of life experience in dealing with government / civil service including working for them so I have reason for the way I think.

    Would you prefer if I didn't engage in discussion in future?

  • in reply to mp500

    I didn't have the experience of having to give my name and address to any businesses or barcodes, I'm not sure how I could have a barcode scanned as I have nothing to scan one from or on. Although I did hear that many restaurants did their menus by QR code and many still do, nowhere round here does anything like that, when I went to Llanddno last year, the cafe in M&S was all remote and touch screen, it was like a different world. I wasn't asked for my vaccine passport, except when I went for a second and third jab, so I didn't feel survielled, I feel far more survielled by APNR and CCTV cameras and now Ring doorbells.

    What objections do you have to the online safety bill? As far as I can see it effects me not at all, but then my online pressence is very low, probably so low that it would be looked on suspiciously by some!

    I wonder how my Mum and many of our older neighbours would cope with digital ID, I know a few who have no internet or anything and one elderly neighbour who's very hard of hearing and dosen't see too well either having lots of problems. He would be able to understand what he was being told or asked to do, it would become yet another way for him to be disempowered. I wonder how many other elderly or disabled people would be in the same boat? We still have pockets of no connectivity here, it's not as bad as it was, but there's still lots of places where it's really bad or non-existant.

  • in reply to Iain

    I just shove a couple of poo bags in my pocket, I wouldn't trust a card in my pocket in case it fell out.

    Iain, with respect, I feel you have a very punishing attitude towards me and are more interested in disagreeing with anything I say than actually engaging with any issues I raise in a more general way. You once said you weren't going to talk to me any more because you felt I was berating you all the time, I feel a lot of hostility from you in the way you respond to any posts of mine. Please note that I'm owning my feelings and not making accusations.

  • Agreed  

    I am reminded that a certain central European nation introduced ID cards in 1938 which served as basic ID cards for citizens but also was also used to specifically identify and stigmatize sections of the population and facilitate their persecution.

    Possibly I am put off such a plan by associating it to this, or the thought of being stopped in the street and getting a demand to show my ID.  Maybe watched too films with that in when younger younger! 

    Anyway as you say, any self respecting, serious (and likely rich) ne-er-do-well will have a few have a fake...  So even those up to no good will get the best of an apartheid state.

    If a card for the NHS that carries our details would make access to our important info better for better care then why don't we have an NHS card that can only be accesssed by the NHS?

    For some reason the Talking Heads song "Life During Wartime" has sprung to my mind.

  • in reply to TheCatWoman
    TheCatWoman said:
    As someone who frequently goes out carrying nothing more that a couple of tissues and some poo bags, I would find having to carry more stuff around with me an imposition.

    At a practical level, if you can carry poo bags then you can carry a credit card sized ID card. The practicalities are trivial so I suspect you are just being stubborn which is currently your right.

    Should the law change is there really any reasonable arguement why you couldn't carry one?

    TheCatWoman said:
    There are times when I want to uncontactable,

    There is no requirement for them to contact you. What they are saying is you have to be identifiable in the event you are stopped by them.

    If they insist on electronic ID on a smartphone then you can leave it in flight mode so there is no contact and your situation continues as before. It means a slightly more bulky item to carry than just an ID card but you can get a "holster" type holder for the device so it is no more intrusive then a pack of poo bags at the end of the day.

  • in reply to Iain

    As someone who frequently goes out carrying nothing more that a couple of tissues and some poo bags, I would find having to carry more stuff around with me an imposition. There are times when I want to uncontactable, I like that freedom, to be away from others, especially if I'm feeling troubled, I want to walk and think, uninterupted.

  • I think people will accept ID cards this time around, in the same way they have accepted the Online Safety Act.

    Why? I blame Coronavirus. They managed to normalise handing over your name and address to various businesses you visited, or scanning barcodes, as well as v*ccine passports. They didn't get away with ID cards in the 2000s, but people are used to that level of surveillance now thanks to the p[l]andemic.

  • TheCatWoman said:
    I don't care, this is our country, a free country, thats fast becoming a tin pot dictatorship and will only get worse if this infringement goes ahead. 

     I think you will find we are already in a form of dictatorship as there are only really 2 political parties in a meaningful sense and they are so alike one another now that it makes so little difference.

    Who remembers all the people here who were excited when Labour took power and thought we would have lots of socialist policies and life would be so different to under the Conservative party? It turned out to be just more of the same.

    Now the ruling party have a huge majority so can push through whatever laws they want.

    I've lived in several countries that require you to carry ID with you at all times, and aside from building the habit of carrying it with you there is no problem having an extra card in your wallet / purse.

    As for the imposition of being able to be identified, do we really have any right to anonimity? Is this entrenched in the Citizens charter?

    If there is no right to being unidentifiable then the focus should be more on making law enforcement follow the same rules of engagement in terms of what the data is used for.

    We had to carry ID cards during WW2 so the government know if can do it. Maybe it just needs a suitable scare to leverage the population into compliance.

    There does seem to be a global more to a more police state mentality from governments so I don't think we will be able to avoid it. Digital seems the most viable solution as the percentage of people like you who do not have a smart phone with them most of the time is miniscule and it probably marks you as exhibiting suspicious behaviour to most law enforcement eyes.

    It wouldn't be hard to get you to conform. I'm sure the government could give you a basic smart phone (setup with digital ID) with a long battery life and tell you to carry it and keep it charged. Not hard to do and there is no reasonable excuse not to if that is the law.

    The days of freedom are drawing to an end and I don't think we have any realistic chance to stand against it.

  • in reply to Stuart333

    I don’t wish to go too far into politics as it’s a messy and sad affair, especially with what’s going on in the world today and I try to tune out as much as possible because it’s overwhelming. I think I’ll try stay as naive as possible because that’s the safer option, it takes too much of a toll otherwise and I cannot afford further burnout. 

  • in reply to Autismman

    Assuming you mean the Palestine Action thing, people seem to be getting confused.

    You can march up and down, waving Palestinian flags, wearing scarves, flapping banners, making noise and causing inconvenience as much as you want.

    You can support Palestinians, support them getting a state, if you care to.

    What you can't do is express support for a banned (proscribed) terrorist organisation.

    It is in the same bucket as sitting there with ISIS banners.

    You will be arrested.

    You could disagree with the group being proscribed, but wait for the high/supreme court case in Nov/Dec to decide.

    Parliament voted to proscribe them though, and not by a small margin.

    Take it up with your MP. Trying to overwhelm the police is a bit pointless.

    I expect they will make an example of someone. Being convicted of a terrorism offence will probably make it hard to go on holiday too.

  • I don't see the need to carry ID cards. Why would we need to? People may say it's not a problem if you have nothing to hide, but I say why would someone want to see my ID when I'm just popping down the shops?

    The argument about accessing healthcare & education is unfounded - you already need an NI number to access healthcare, and hospitals do charge those not eligible, but they don't always pay. But I doubt that UK hospitals are going to start refusing to treat someone in real need of medical attention. And the education issue can be addressed by asking for proof of nationality of the student or parent, such as a passport, in the same way that it's required for renting a property.

    I suspect it's a moneymaking thing.

  • TheCatWoman said:
    this is our country, a free country, thats fast becoming a tin pot dictatorship

    There will be those who disagree however after watching elderly people this morning, some blind and being lifted from their wheelchairs to be arrested for the crime of holding a wooden sign I don’t know how anyone could say any different. If you are in doubt this is happening check it out for yourself online.