Identity cards

TheCatWoman said:

I don't care, this is our country, a free country, thats fast becoming a tin pot dictatorship and will only get worse if this infringement goes ahead. 

 I think you will find we are already in a form of dictatorship as there are only really 2 political parties in a meaningful sense and they are so alike one another now that it makes so little difference.

Who remembers all the people here who were excited when Labour took power and thought we would have lots of socialist policies and life would be so different to under the Conservative party? It turned out to be just more of the same.

Now the ruling party have a huge majority so can push through whatever laws they want.

I've lived in several countries that require you to carry ID with you at all times, and aside from building the habit of carrying it with you there is no problem having an extra card in your wallet / purse.

As for the imposition of being able to be identified, do we really have any right to anonimity? Is this entrenched in the Citizens charter?

If there is no right to being unidentifiable then the focus should be more on making law enforcement follow the same rules of engagement in terms of what the data is used for.

We had to carry ID cards during WW2 so the government know if can do it. Maybe it just needs a suitable scare to leverage the population into compliance.

There does seem to be a global more to a more police state mentality from governments so I don't think we will be able to avoid it. Digital seems the most viable solution as the percentage of people like you who do not have a smart phone with them most of the time is miniscule and it probably marks you as exhibiting suspicious behaviour to most law enforcement eyes.

It wouldn't be hard to get you to conform. I'm sure the government could give you a basic smart phone (setup with digital ID) with a long battery life and tell you to carry it and keep it charged. Not hard to do and there is no reasonable excuse not to if that is the law.

The days of freedom are drawing to an end and I don't think we have any realistic chance to stand against it.

As someone who frequently goes out carrying nothing more that a couple of tissues and some poo bags, I would find having to carry more stuff around with me an imposition. There are times when I want to uncontactable, I like that freedom, to be away from others, especially if I'm feeling troubled, I want to walk and think, uninterupted.

TheCatWoman said:

As someone who frequently goes out carrying nothing more that a couple of tissues and some poo bags, I would find having to carry more stuff around with me an imposition.

At a practical level, if you can carry poo bags then you can carry a credit card sized ID card. The practicalities are trivial so I suspect you are just being stubborn which is currently your right.

Should the law change is there really any reasonable arguement why you couldn't carry one?

TheCatWoman said:

There are times when I want to uncontactable,

There is no requirement for them to contact you. What they are saying is you have to be identifiable in the event you are stopped by them.

If they insist on electronic ID on a smartphone then you can leave it in flight mode so there is no contact and your situation continues as before. It means a slightly more bulky item to carry than just an ID card but you can get a "holster" type holder for the device so it is no more intrusive then a pack of poo bags at the end of the day.

TheCatWoman said:

As someone who frequently goes out carrying nothing more that a couple of tissues and some poo bags, I would find having to carry more stuff around with me an imposition.

At a practical level, if you can carry poo bags then you can carry a credit card sized ID card. The practicalities are trivial so I suspect you are just being stubborn which is currently your right.

Should the law change is there really any reasonable arguement why you couldn't carry one?

TheCatWoman said:

There are times when I want to uncontactable,

There is no requirement for them to contact you. What they are saying is you have to be identifiable in the event you are stopped by them.

If they insist on electronic ID on a smartphone then you can leave it in flight mode so there is no contact and your situation continues as before. It means a slightly more bulky item to carry than just an ID card but you can get a "holster" type holder for the device so it is no more intrusive then a pack of poo bags at the end of the day.

I wouldn't know how to transfer something from device to device, let alone Mum do it, or any of our elderly neighbours.

Oh what a brilliant idea, lets all be microchipped like dogs! What if you were allergic to the implant? The body would recognise it as a foreign body and make an abcess around it to expell it. I know there are many example of people who have various implants their bodies are quite happy to accept, but some of have bodies that see way to much as foreign bodies.

I don't see the point in having yet another card or device that criminals are able to copy easily, it will become another hoop to jump through. I often feel like a suspected criminal when I say I don't have things like a passport and loads of other ID, I tell them that if I were a real criminal all my ID would be flawless and exactly what was asked for. I feel like it's getting to the point where there's so many hoops that the only people who can jump through them are criminals!

Hello, sorry I don't have more time to go into detail now - I agree with much of what you say and will try to keep this in mind when replying in future.

Thanks for being patient as I know I can be thorny at times.

TheCatWoman said:

Being a techie sort of peron I'm surprised you didn't engage with the idea of how long it will be before criminals can fake them and will we end up still needing a passport, a full driving licence and a utility bill as well as our ID card?

Anything that criminals can subvert for gain will be subverted. I used to work as a "white hat" hacker - ie defending against cyber attacks and what I saw then and later when working with the police is quite dispiriting.

There is a constant arms race we can only ever be on the trailing edge of so there will always be risks of our data being stolen, bank accounts being emptied, devices compromised etc.

I suppose I have accepted this and stopped worrying about it. Instead I take what sensible precautions I can and have a backup plan in case stuff goes wrong. A bit like your health - do what you can to take care while enjoying life but accept that sometimes stuff goes wrong.

One advantage of the single card could be that it is no longer for a single purpose (as passports or driving licenses are for) but can be used in a much wider range of situations. It would be an ideal solution for your mum for example as she does not need to drive or travel to qualify for it.

If they can make it an electronic device then it can be transferred from device to device as you upgrade or even implanted in a chip under your skin in theory. It does make it easier to fake at current technology levels but it is also way too easy to get fake passports, driving licenses etc (don't ask how I know...).

There are plenty of portable devices that could qualify as suitable for your mum - some are completely passive (ie no input, just a display), are credit card sized and can be left in the drawer for a year or two without needing the battery changed.

The upsides outweigh the downsides in this case I think, certainly compared to the laternatives (or lack thereof).

I like many of your contributions and certainly wouldn't want you to stop making them, I know many of these things might be inevitable, but that dosen't mean that I have to like them or shouldn't campaign against them. I felt like you were shutting me down and wondered if others of a more timid disposition might feel the same.

It would be really good if you engaged with some of the issues I raise in a more general and less personal manner. Such as how do peope like my Mum who's 91 and I suspect NT and a bit dyspraxic cope with the technology required? She carries the mobile phoe we have when she goes for her newspaper, but I'm not sure she knows how to do more than call 999 and may struggle to do that. I can't even get her to look at my kindle, like many older couples when my Dad was alive using a computer was something they'd struggle through together, my Mum could use the keyboard, but not the mouse and my Dad the mouse but not the keyboard. I know other older people like this too. How will the need for this sort of digital ID effect them? Many don't have people who can help them, some have problems retaining new information anyway especially on something like a phone.

Being a techie sort of peron I'm surprised you didn't engage with the idea of how long it will be before criminals can fake them and will we end up still needing a passport, a full driving licence and a utility bill as well as our ID card?

What about the amount of information carried on such a card and who has access to it and how easy will it be to correct any mistakes, let alone how do you prove who your are if your ID is lost? Maybe you're out fishing and drop your phone in the sea, or have it fall down a ravine when climbing the mountains? It's easy to say that people should be more careful, but they're not, don't forget loads of people have to be rescued from Yr Eryri every year as they try and climb it in flip flops.

TheCatWoman said:

I feel you have a very punishing attitude towards me and are more interested in disagreeing with anything I say than actually engaging with any issues I raise

I apologise if I have made you feel this way.

My approach to coversations like these is to provoke debate by giving a different viewpoint or to highlight that there are other aspects that may not have been considered.

With things like carrying ID / smart devices etc I also wanted to help you understand that there is no getting away from it even when you really don't like it or find it difficult. The government don't care and it is in their interests so they will push it through.

My angle of discussion here was to help you consider if your arguements against stood up to scrutiny.

There is no intention of hostility in my responses, rather a push to help you consider angles that you may not have looked at or placed enough weight behind.

I guess I am owning my feelings too - some can be a bit fatalistic but I have a lot of life experience in dealing with government / civil service including working for them so I have reason for the way I think.

Would you prefer if I didn't engage in discussion in future?

I just shove a couple of poo bags in my pocket, I wouldn't trust a card in my pocket in case it fell out.

Iain, with respect, I feel you have a very punishing attitude towards me and are more interested in disagreeing with anything I say than actually engaging with any issues I raise in a more general way. You once said you weren't going to talk to me any more because you felt I was berating you all the time, I feel a lot of hostility from you in the way you respond to any posts of mine. Please note that I'm owning my feelings and not making accusations.