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Identity cards

TheCatWoman

The new Home secretary is talking about introducing identity cards and maybe making it compulsory to carry them, outside of war, the IK has never had identity cards, we've never had to prove who we are to access services, or to provide proof of who we are when asked to by police. 

I remember when Tony Blair's government wanted to bring them in back in the 1999's-early 2000's, I opposed them then and I oppose them now, especially if they're compulsory. Part of the thinking is that we all carry different sorts of digital ID anyway so one more won't make any difference. Not all of us carry digital ID, I don't, my Mum dosen't, nor do some of my friends. We don't have smart phones, don't know how to use them, can't afford them, don't want them, so will we be made to have them, or will alternatives be provided?

Another issue with ID cards, is what will be on them and who will have access to that information? It would be great if you had an accident and were rushed to A&E unconcious and they could access your phone and get your medical records, but what if you were arrested or wrongly detained, or stopped and searched, or were the victim of a crime, would the police be able to access you rmedical records and decide, say that because you have a medical condition that your case warrents no further investigation?

One of the arguments is that only people here legally will be able to access services, like hosptials and education, that it will help to stop illegal migration. How long will be before criminals start making ID cards, just lke they do NI, driving licenses and passports? WIll we end up with a situation where an ID card is just another hoop to jump through when wanting to go about ones normal and legitimate business, will we end up needing 3 forms of photo ID? 

The civil liberties aspects of ID cards really worries me, what happens if our ID card get stolen or hacked, how will we prove who we are? What safeguards could there be? I know there will be many who will come out with the old chestnut that if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear, yeah right, so miscarriages of justice never happen? Or that they manage in other countries, I don't care, this is our country, a free country, thats fast becoming a tin pot dictatorship and will only get worse if this infringement goes ahead. 

Parents
  • TheCatWoman said:
    I don't care, this is our country, a free country, thats fast becoming a tin pot dictatorship and will only get worse if this infringement goes ahead. 

     I think you will find we are already in a form of dictatorship as there are only really 2 political parties in a meaningful sense and they are so alike one another now that it makes so little difference.

    Who remembers all the people here who were excited when Labour took power and thought we would have lots of socialist policies and life would be so different to under the Conservative party? It turned out to be just more of the same.

    Now the ruling party have a huge majority so can push through whatever laws they want.

    I've lived in several countries that require you to carry ID with you at all times, and aside from building the habit of carrying it with you there is no problem having an extra card in your wallet / purse.

    As for the imposition of being able to be identified, do we really have any right to anonimity? Is this entrenched in the Citizens charter?

    If there is no right to being unidentifiable then the focus should be more on making law enforcement follow the same rules of engagement in terms of what the data is used for.

    We had to carry ID cards during WW2 so the government know if can do it. Maybe it just needs a suitable scare to leverage the population into compliance.

    There does seem to be a global more to a more police state mentality from governments so I don't think we will be able to avoid it. Digital seems the most viable solution as the percentage of people like you who do not have a smart phone with them most of the time is miniscule and it probably marks you as exhibiting suspicious behaviour to most law enforcement eyes.

    It wouldn't be hard to get you to conform. I'm sure the government could give you a basic smart phone (setup with digital ID) with a long battery life and tell you to carry it and keep it charged. Not hard to do and there is no reasonable excuse not to if that is the law.

    The days of freedom are drawing to an end and I don't think we have any realistic chance to stand against it.

  • in reply to Iain

    As someone who frequently goes out carrying nothing more that a couple of tissues and some poo bags, I would find having to carry more stuff around with me an imposition. There are times when I want to uncontactable, I like that freedom, to be away from others, especially if I'm feeling troubled, I want to walk and think, uninterupted.

  • in reply to TheCatWoman
    TheCatWoman said:
    As someone who frequently goes out carrying nothing more that a couple of tissues and some poo bags, I would find having to carry more stuff around with me an imposition.

    At a practical level, if you can carry poo bags then you can carry a credit card sized ID card. The practicalities are trivial so I suspect you are just being stubborn which is currently your right.

    Should the law change is there really any reasonable arguement why you couldn't carry one?

    TheCatWoman said:
    There are times when I want to uncontactable,

    There is no requirement for them to contact you. What they are saying is you have to be identifiable in the event you are stopped by them.

    If they insist on electronic ID on a smartphone then you can leave it in flight mode so there is no contact and your situation continues as before. It means a slightly more bulky item to carry than just an ID card but you can get a "holster" type holder for the device so it is no more intrusive then a pack of poo bags at the end of the day.

  • in reply to Iain

    I wouldn't know how to transfer something from device to device, let alone Mum do it, or any of our elderly neighbours.

    Oh what a brilliant idea, lets all be microchipped like dogs! What if you were allergic to the implant? The body would recognise it as a foreign body and make an abcess around it to expell it. I know there are many example of people who have various implants their bodies are quite happy to accept, but some of have bodies that see way to much as foreign bodies.

    I don't see the point in having yet another card or device that criminals are able to copy easily, it will become another hoop to jump through. I often feel like a suspected criminal when I say I don't have things like a passport and loads of other ID, I tell them that if I were a real criminal all my ID would be flawless and exactly what was asked for. I feel like it's getting to the point where there's so many hoops that the only people who can jump through them are criminals!

  • in reply to TheCatWoman

    Hello, sorry I don't have more time to go into detail now - I agree with much of what you say and will try to keep this in mind when replying in future.

    Thanks for being patient as I know I can be thorny at times.

    TheCatWoman said:
    Being a techie sort of peron I'm surprised you didn't engage with the idea of how long it will be before criminals can fake them and will we end up still needing a passport, a full driving licence and a utility bill as well as our ID card?

    Anything that criminals can subvert for gain will be subverted. I used to work as a "white hat" hacker - ie defending against cyber attacks and what I saw then and later when working with the police is quite dispiriting.

    There is a constant arms race we can only ever be on the trailing edge of so there will always be risks of our data being stolen, bank accounts being emptied, devices compromised etc.

    I suppose I have accepted this and stopped worrying about it. Instead I take what sensible precautions I can and have a backup plan in case stuff goes wrong. A bit like your health - do what you can to take care while enjoying life but accept that sometimes stuff goes wrong.

    One advantage of the single card could be that it is no longer for a single purpose (as passports or driving licenses are for) but can be used in a much wider range of situations. It would be an ideal solution for your mum for example as she does not need to drive or travel to qualify for it.

    If they can make it an electronic device then it can be transferred from device to device as you upgrade or even implanted in a chip under your skin in theory. It does make it easier to fake at current technology levels but it is also way too easy to get fake passports, driving licenses etc (don't ask how I know...).

    There are plenty of portable devices that could qualify as suitable for your mum - some are completely passive (ie no input, just a display), are credit card sized and can be left in the drawer for a year or two without needing the battery changed.

    The upsides outweigh the downsides in this case I think, certainly compared to the laternatives (or lack thereof).

Reply
  • in reply to TheCatWoman

    Hello, sorry I don't have more time to go into detail now - I agree with much of what you say and will try to keep this in mind when replying in future.

    Thanks for being patient as I know I can be thorny at times.

    TheCatWoman said:
    Being a techie sort of peron I'm surprised you didn't engage with the idea of how long it will be before criminals can fake them and will we end up still needing a passport, a full driving licence and a utility bill as well as our ID card?

    Anything that criminals can subvert for gain will be subverted. I used to work as a "white hat" hacker - ie defending against cyber attacks and what I saw then and later when working with the police is quite dispiriting.

    There is a constant arms race we can only ever be on the trailing edge of so there will always be risks of our data being stolen, bank accounts being emptied, devices compromised etc.

    I suppose I have accepted this and stopped worrying about it. Instead I take what sensible precautions I can and have a backup plan in case stuff goes wrong. A bit like your health - do what you can to take care while enjoying life but accept that sometimes stuff goes wrong.

    One advantage of the single card could be that it is no longer for a single purpose (as passports or driving licenses are for) but can be used in a much wider range of situations. It would be an ideal solution for your mum for example as she does not need to drive or travel to qualify for it.

    If they can make it an electronic device then it can be transferred from device to device as you upgrade or even implanted in a chip under your skin in theory. It does make it easier to fake at current technology levels but it is also way too easy to get fake passports, driving licenses etc (don't ask how I know...).

    There are plenty of portable devices that could qualify as suitable for your mum - some are completely passive (ie no input, just a display), are credit card sized and can be left in the drawer for a year or two without needing the battery changed.

    The upsides outweigh the downsides in this case I think, certainly compared to the laternatives (or lack thereof).

Children
  • in reply to Iain

    I wouldn't know how to transfer something from device to device, let alone Mum do it, or any of our elderly neighbours.

    Oh what a brilliant idea, lets all be microchipped like dogs! What if you were allergic to the implant? The body would recognise it as a foreign body and make an abcess around it to expell it. I know there are many example of people who have various implants their bodies are quite happy to accept, but some of have bodies that see way to much as foreign bodies.

    I don't see the point in having yet another card or device that criminals are able to copy easily, it will become another hoop to jump through. I often feel like a suspected criminal when I say I don't have things like a passport and loads of other ID, I tell them that if I were a real criminal all my ID would be flawless and exactly what was asked for. I feel like it's getting to the point where there's so many hoops that the only people who can jump through them are criminals!