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A Triple Empathy Problem - think about it.

Phased

Readers of this may be aware of Sir Baron Cohen's work of the problem of empathy for autistics from 2009 and beyond.

Readers of this may also be aware of and have lived experiences of the Double Empathy Problem as described by Dr Damian Milton in 2012.

Recently I have been thinking that as well as including double empathy problems between neurodiverse and neurotypical maybe the model could do with expanding again.

There is a third empathy problem that is also in the mix:

"be kind to yourself", get to know the neurodivergent you" etc.are the sort of advice and practice that I encounter post diagnosis.  These are problems of empathising with oneself as neurodivergent which many of us work so hard to overcome.

I suggest promotion of awareness of the triple empathy problem.

ThinkingNeutral faceVulcan

  • Thanks to the discussion with  and  
    I've come up with this to send to Dr Milton
    Thoughts on it and discussion that follows sought please :-)
    "Dear Dr Damian Milton
     
    Please excuse unsolicited e-mail however your work on double empathy has been fundamental to my thinking of late and would like to "run by you" where this brings me to.
     
    I suspect this thinking might not be novel.  If I can come up with it then others including yourself may have already done so long before me!
     
    Nonetheless:
     
    Perhaps here is a third empathy problem that is also critically in the mix?
     
    "be kind to yourself", get to know the neurodivergent you" etc.are the sort of advice and practice that I and other neurodivergent people encounter post diagnosis.  These are problems of empathising with oneself as neurodivergent which although hard to overcome appear to be important for progress.
     
    Discussion with a neurodiverse friend has suggested "identifying the cause of the problem as being the high masking self not empathising with the ND self and vice versa" - itself a dual empathy problem.  Albeit an "internal" one for the autistic person.   
     
    I think the dual empathy problem is normally applied to two people tho' - is that the case?
     
    Maybe the lack of self empathy as outlined also fits with a presentation that fits evidence that autism is misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder?
     
    (On a linked point I am drawn to consider that neurotypical people are perhaps less inclined to have an empathy problem with themselves as neurotypical society validates how they feel more readily than it does neurodiverse.)
     
    Therefore I suggest highlighting the struggle autistic people have in empathising with them-self by coining and promoting the term "triple empathy problem"
     
    I acknowledge that this may be an inference I am drawing however this is how it both "appears" to me by observation and what i have learned to consider by reading about and discussion of the topic.
     
    I recognise, as another autistic friend has pointed out has pointed out to me, is that in effect what I am proposing may well be folding "internalised ablism" into an already excellent model. 
     
    I am proposing however that it is so important that it be given the same priority and acknowledgment as empathy by and between neurodiverse and neurotypical people.
     
    Therefore the "triple empathy problem"  
     
    Please could you share your thoughts with me on this?
     
    Sincerely"
  • in reply to Bunny

    Thanks   Yes I believe that this is the same point :-)  I am proposing that it is so important that it be given the same priority as empathy by and between neurodiverse and neurotypical people.  Therefore the "triple empathy problem"  

  • The issue that you describe (of potentially struggling to empathise with our neurodivergent selves) sounds very much to me like "internalised ableism". 

    Please don't feel that my use of that phrase implies any form of personal criticism towards you or anyone else - it truly doesn't. I'm trying to work through my own internalised ableism, and am not finding it either easy or a quick process (because it typically isn't).

    Recognising and understanding it can be really helpful in tackling the kinds of issues that you described, such as being kinder to ourselves, getting to know the neurodivergent us, etc.

    Rather than waffling on about it myself, I'll link to this article, which explains more - including noting the very important points that "A lifetime of conditioning cannot be undone overnight", and " internalised ableism doesn’t mean you are a bad person":

    Autistic Parents UK - Overcoming Internalised Ableism

  • in reply to Damojo

    Thanks  

    Damojo said:
    neurotype

    I think this a good way of describing it.  What you write makes sense to me too

    The model also fits with evidence that autism is misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder.

    hehe as regards what I wrote making sense well "so far so good" (there's a joke there from the magnificent seven film...)

    Damojo said:
    we are picking the wrong target

    I admit to having a martial background myself (long story...) anyway, perhaps another term might be "where we are focusing our attention"  Less conflict = happier people? :-)

    Vulcan

  • in reply to Phased
    Phased said:
    I think the dual empathy problem is normally applied to two people tho'

    Maybe we can make an important contribution to Autism research by generalising it to two neurotypes (possibly living in the same brain). Wink

    I "reckon" what you wrote makes a lot of sense. We tend to rate ourselves against what is "normal" and NDs are always going to fall short if that is the target. The neurodiversity paradigm tells us that we are picking the wrong target.

  • Hi    Hope it's OK to copy you into this thread as it seems to me to be something we have talked about and in doing so you helped me come up with it.

  • in reply to Damojo

    Yes  I believe you are right in identifying the cause of the problem as being the high masking self not empathising with the ND self and vice versa - itself a dual empathy problem.  Albeit an "internal" one for the autistic person. 

    I think the dual empathy problem is normally applied to two people tho' 

    Therefore I suggest highlighting the struggle autistic people have in empathising with themself by coining the term "triple empathy problem"

    On a linked point I am drawn to consider that neurotypical people are perhaps less inclined to have an empathy problem with themselves as neurotypical society validates how they feel more readily than it does neurodiverse.

    I acknowledge that this may be an inference I am drawing however this is how it both "appears" to me by observation and what i have learned to consider by reading about and discussion of the topic.

    What do you reckon?

  • Could this just be another aspect of the double-empathy problem? Our high-masking NT-like personas cannot empathise with our unmasked ND personas?