Flag waving

Hi, That he could not speak English is often trotted out as a reason for him not being a 'good' king. However, it is not known to what extent he knew English. A record of 1175 shows a Norman-descended aristocrat being warned by his wife that a retainer had drawn his sword, presumably to attack his lord, in English, "Huge de Moreville, ware, ware, ware, Lithulf heth his swerd adrage!" Which is still fairly understandable.

Hello Martin, thank you for correcting me regarding Richard the 1st ability to speak English. I merely read it as part of an article on the recent flag waving trend.  Medieval history is not my strong point.

Norman French was the official language of the aristocracy, right up to at least the 14th C with many still speaking it as a second language.

I've always thought Henry I was an interesting king, he was sort of New Normans, a bit like Blairs New Labour, he really tried hard to unite Normans and Saxons, but it didn't work out very well.

I've seen some flags on lamp posts down the road, I'm guessing their up there for the Rugby, 3 Welsh and 2 Union Jacks.

I think people here are less likely to be concerned with migrant hotels than they are with tourists, we get more of them every year and they get worse and worse. 

TheCatWoman said:

I'm not a fan of flags at the best of times, but when I see the St George flag or the Union Jack, I immediately think the worst, maybe its a hangover from growing up in the 1970's when they were associated with football holigans rioting and the National Front.

I identify with that, and if we have experienced things like that we can’t feel otherwise.

In my case it’s when I see the Union Flag and the Irish Tricolour. Having grown up during the worst of ‘the troubles’ in N. Ireland, I associate those flags with division and violence and I loathe the sight of them. It’s impossible not to make the association, even when the Irish Flag is flying legitimately over government buildings in Dublin, or the Union Flag is flying in its proper place over a council building in England.

Years after her death, I am still hearing my mother’s voice saying, “I would ban the lot of them”. 

Flags should be flown in a dignified manner. Tragically, the misplaced and illegitimate flying of National flags promotes a less than gratifying experience of legitimate national flag flying. 

The ability of Richard I to speak English is not known. He was born in England, probably Oxford, and he is first recorded as leaving England when he was about eight years old. So it is highly likely that he was exposed to spoken English in his childhood. We know that his father, Henry II, could understand English, though he was not a fluent speaker. Richard wrote poetry in French and Occitan and knew Latin, so he was a polyglot. I did once come across a record of him swearing at a captive, perhaps Isaac of Cyprus, in English, but have not been able to locate it again.

By the 1150s most Norman aristocrats in England knew English. Many of the first generation married English wives, when they inherited land through such a marriage. Strangely, the first generation of Normans born in England abandoned the shaved neck and faces of their fathers' generation and adopted the long hair and facial hair of the Anglo-Saxons.

i agree with you so much as my village has now grown a forest of flags whereas before now, it would just be for special occasions. Richard The Lionheart was not an English speaker. It all seems so jumbled up when it comes to defining what pride in our flag should mean? Nothing to do with poor politics of blaming minorities.

190E(Taylor’s version) said:

when will people just be nice to other people racism serves no purpose 

It does serve a very real purpose.

It gives a rally point for politicians to use to point to the immigrants and blame them for all our issues and keep the focus away from the fact most of the issues come from the failings of the very politicians egging us on.

It unifies disparate groups and has been emotive enough to get people to vote for parties they would otherwise not touch with a barge pole.

It is a powerful tool wielded by unscrupulous charlatans to further their own power.

You weren’t kidding! apple.news/A0d3dlaS2RsCUhDuHhpQSiQ

I suspect the Golden Wyvern would upset those from other English regions.

Newnight did a section on the subject last night and it was very interesting, I actually agreed with Steve Baker, who when he was a minister stood for everything I disliked, he asked about whether those who waved flags around were insecure in thier identity? It's worth a watch, he made comparrisons to NI too.

Theres no representation of Wales in the Union Jack, so it's not a flag of unified countries, Wales was conquered and assimilated into England.

I'm not a fan of flags at the best of times, but when I see the St George flag or the Union Jack, I immediately think the worst, maybe its a hangover from growing up in the 1970's when they were associated with football holigans rioting and the National Front. I don't think they'll ever be anything other than symbols of racism and thuggery for me.

Whilst my community has had lots of bad experiences with migrants thats nkt a fair way to assume all foreigners are bad people 

our favourite foods are from India snd china our favourite cars are German and French are TVs are made in Japan yet people are huge racists? Like when will people just be nice to other people racism serves no purpose 

I do feel uncomfortable as well. On a related note, I was quite happy with The National's frontpage:

Welcome to the English version of N. Ireland!

We have Ulster flags, Irish flags, Union flags (some upside down), UVF, UDA and other such flags, hanging on lamp posts in very nearly every town and city here. We also have Israeli flags hanging in loyalist communities and Palestinian flags hanging in Nationalist communities.

Some of these flags are flying as a symbol of identity and are to mark territory, but their purpose is to incite fear and hatred.

I don’t think that people who hang flags as a symbol of hatred are interested in the history of St George, it wouldn't serve their purpose.

Yes, I do think the Welsh flag is nice and it would be nice if N.Ireland had something nicer than a cross with a red hand.

Perhaps England could revive the Golden Wyvern of Wessex? It was shown over the English troops on the Bayeux Tapestry. Henry V flew the banner of Edward the Confessor at Agincourt. 

So flags aren’t quite unanimous enough for people that don’t hang them to be targeted thankfully. But I feel like it is easy to generalize the population that do as either Republican (they also commonly hang TRUMP 2024 flags along with it) or veterans (who honestly have good reason to). We do have a lot of people brave enough to hang LGBTQ+ flags, which I would personally be worried about being targeted for (especially in my area)

If only it were just football, and thats bad enough!

I wonder what it's like for people who live in areas where flag waving has become common, who don't display a flag? I don't imagine it's comfortable and I doubt if it will be long before they become targets.

TheCatWoman said:

being paraded around the streets by those wanting rid of asylum seekers and placed in gardens.

Do you feel comfortable with it? I don't, for me it's tainted by Neo Nazi's and other fascists

Yeah that’s what we’ve got with flags in the US. So no, I’m not really comfortable with the flag waving either. Sad to hear y’all are starting to have some of the same issues we have over here.

I wish it was associated with football/soccer here in the US.