Flag waving

NOOOOOOOOO!

Phased said:

"Alright, mate?"  ArchaeC (NAS96740) google suggests this as a typically English greeting :-) 

I don’t understand your response. What has Google to do with this? Would you explain please?

I intended my post to be a lighthearted take on the English history. Relatives I used to have from Lancashire used to joke about this when chatting to their neighbour from Yorkshire, and the joking was reciprocated. 

I am sorry if I have offended you. I am not clear if I have or have not. I was deliberately “stirring things”(Deliberately/with intention to provoke a response) in a way that did not intend damage to the discussion, more to add a bit of fun.

Perhaps my initial thoughts were correct?

ArchaeC said:

I wouldn’t dare suggest an alternative, not being English

ArchaeC said:

pattern such as red and white stripes/check/spots

Or a nice paisley?

"Alright, mate?"  ArchaeC (NAS96740) google suggests this as a typically English greeting :-) 

I suggest colour at the discretion of the person or organisation.  Appreciate could stimulate enmity but hey? people in my experience will argue about anything... rainbow roses would be a great compromise in my opinion.

Most people think of 'Jeruslem' as being the Elgar version with Blakes poem put to to music in a rather nationalistic way, which was never Blakes intention, he would have been horrified at what Elgar did to it.

I am honoured that you suggest I be an honorary English person. 

I have a question about the suggestion of a rose or roses on the flag. Would a rose in red or white cause conflict between those from Yorkshire and Lancashire, and if so, should roses in red or white be excluded from the colour choice, or included in a pattern such as red and white stripes/check/spots? 

Oh I like that - from "a rebel of abuse of class power"  if ever there was one.  Great lyrics and his visual work has an inspirational bonus too.  You might like:  The Great Red Dragon and the Woman Clothed with Sun TheCatWoman 

Or an oak tree on a green field, symbolising 'England's green and pleasant land' as William Blake so eloquently put it.

It is ironic that Richard, who was considered by his contemporaries as a model Christian ruler, is now considered to have been a poor king. He led a largely successful Crusade, was a noted warrior, an expert military commander, a poet and troubadour and kept a tight grip on his lands and subjects. He only spent 6 months in England following his coronation, but this was because he was Crusading, in captivity or fighting to secure his continental possessions most of his reign. Rather than reflecting on Richard as being a bad king, that he only had to be in England for such a short time is really a positive indication that England was a relatively stable and well governed country during his reign.

I appreciate your appreciation, also tour being reserved in this matter ArchaeC hehe, perhaps that might make you an honorary English person (as typically portrayed) and therefore eligible?  : -)

I wouldn’t dare suggest an alternative, not being English, however I like some of the suggestions on this thread.

I like it as well because wild roses originated here and there are all sorts of others arriving from other parts of the world.  I'd go for a rose which may be any colour desired by the user :-)

hehe - maybe Damojo hamsters and elderberries an option tho' :-)

OK - yep, a rose I'd be up for and to quote Spike Milligan in his war memoirs and combine this with a spark and my original suggestion:  'Skilled exponents could scorch a Tudor rose on the wall.'   Lion an optional extra - as I think this has a bit of a ring of strength and courage about it.  It's also a nod to the royalists out there although some like myself may choose not to focus on that :-)

I'm seeing about this online but it doesn't seem to be happening in my area. I don't like it all. It isn't about nationalism at all in my opinion. 

I don't mind people flying the flag during the world cup or something like that to show support for their team. 

But this has a very different motivation I feel and I don't like that at all.

"Richard 1st (the Lionheart) chose a shield of three lions to represent the three areas England, Normandy and Aquitaine - which were associated with the English crown." (britroyals.com)

I think it would be nice to have just one lion plus a tudor rose. Nicer than a boring red cross. Perhaps one of our artistic members could design it?

Phased said:

duo clunes flatum emitterent

"... in your general direction!"

Perhaps that's a bit too French.

Maybe the Tudor Rose?

I don't feel comfortable with it either.

I find it ironic too.

I have never invested the flag with Christian symbolism myself, seeing it instead the flag of England.  What is gone is gone and good riddance where appropriate.  I like dragons too - much misunderstood in my opinion!  :-) 

Ideas for an alternative anyone?

I'll set the ball rolling by suggesting (in Latin for heraldic purposes)  duo clunes flatum emitterent to convey the idea.

Richard the Lionheart is a bit of an enigma really, people forget that he, like his Father, Henry II ruled an empire, the Angevine Empire which stretched from the borders of Scotland to the Pyrrenes in Southern France. England was only a small part of his domains, one of the first things he did when he became king was start organising to join the Third Crusade, he is alleged to have said he'd sell London if it would give him the funds for crusade.

Richard was almost the perfect example of the "Age of Chivalry", he was a poet and musician, well mannered and a total psychopath on the battle field, some of his actions during the crusade shocked his contemporaries, like the mass executions of Muslim POW's and although they didn't call it so, reckoned it a war crime. His soldiers seemed to be fanatically loyal to him and he was accounted a good leader, probably because he was happy to sleep on a muddy field, freezing and wrapped only in his cloak, he was also deemed to be "lucky", a good quality in a leader.

On his journey back from the Holy Land he was captured and held to ransom, it took his Mother, Dowager Queen Elanor of Aquitaine a good while to raise his ransom, beggaring half the Empire to pay for it. He ruled for 10 years, dying from infection caused by an arrow wound to his shoulder or neck, leaving an Empire that was broke and rapidly fragmenting to his brother John, of Magna Carta fame. 

I think it a shame that this period of history is relatively unknown, it's exciting and is the root of many later conflicts. The people involved were extraordinary at any time, but all at one time is almost unparralled.

For further information, try reading Alison Weir's non fiction biography of Elanor of Aquitaine.

Sharon Penman wrote a good trilogy on Richard and to contrast it, Jack Hight wrote a really excellent trilogy on Richards opponent Saladin, these books are novels, but very well informed ones.

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We've got some flags on some lamposts, one must have blown off as its now below another flag, these too are "half mast", still out of reach though, I don't know who put them up or how. I think the wind and rain will take care of them.

Ordericus Vitalis, a monk and historian, born in 1075 in Shropshire. He had a French father and an English mother. He was sent in his youth for training to a Norman abbey. He later bewailed that he had been exiled to a foreign land and could not understand the language. Though his father was from Orleans, he never learned French at home. Within a few generations Norman French became an acquired language for most of the Norman aristocracy in England. King John's loss of his northern French lands tended to reinforce this trend. The court and royal family remained French speaking much longer.

Henry II, through his maternal grandmother Edith/Matilda of Scotland (a niece of Edgar Atheling), wife of Henry I, was a descendant of Alfred the Great and the legitimate royal dynasty of England. He was hailed, at least by some monastic chroniclers, as the first legitimate king of England since 1066.