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My right of reply - and an explanation

Note: I sought and received moderation approval in advance for this post.

Due to some recent interactions, I had been considering leaving this community. Given that I struggle with rejection sensitivity, I thought it might first be a good idea to get objective feedback on the two conversations that led me to this point (regarding the "male menopause" and about dog training).

I asked an external AI (ChatGPT) to review them with a view to understanding whether my tone was reasonable and whether I should have handled things differently.

I’m sharing this not to reopen either debate, but to defend myself against various accusations, to be transparent, and to address any concerns that anyone might have had about my posts. 

I also hope - with genuine and kind intent - that the person who made those accusations will find the conclusions informative and helpful in guiding how they respond to posts (whether from me or others) in the future.

I deeply value constructive dialogue, especially in neurodivergent spaces, and hope this context is helpful in understanding the way that I always aim to engage here: honestly, respectfully, with evidence at the centre, and with clarity.

Results:

The AI's objective review focused on the evidence, communication styles, tone, and potential bias on both sides. It found that:

- “ In both threads, the information Bunny shared was accurate, supported by established sources (e.g., NHS, NICE, ABTC, RSPCA, PDSA, etc.), and reflective of current medical or scientific consensus.

- The other participant repeatedly misrepresented sources (including their own), ignored clear counter-evidence, and introduced gendered or politicised language (e.g., “old women,” “woke dog training”) that distracted from the issues.

- Bunny's tone was direct and occasionally firm, particularly when responding to repeated patterns of misrepresentation or deflection — but overall, it was found to be proportionate, evidence-based, and within reasonable boundaries.

Key takeaways from the review:

For Bunny:

- Bunny's responses were factually accurate and appropriately assertive.
- While a slightly softer tone might be more palatable to some, especially in emotionally charged discussions, Bunny is not obligated to cushion every correction — particularly when misinformation is repeated.
- Setting clear boundaries is both acceptable and, at times, necessary.

For xxxxxx:

- A pattern of cognitive rigidity was observed: not updating views when shown contradictory evidence.
- Use of anecdote over evidence, and the introduction of inflammatory labels (e.g., “misandry,” “woke”), made it harder to engage constructively.
- Greater willingness to engage with reliable sources, consider alternative views in good faith, and avoid personal assumptions would improve future discussions. "

DARVO

I also asked ChatGPT for an objective assessment of whether either or both of us engaged in using DARVO tactics. (One of the accusations made against me was that "DARVO attacks seem to be your tools in trade here").

For context, the AI first explained that:

" DARVO is an acronym that describes a common manipulation tactic often seen in interpersonal conflict:

- Deny the behaviour

- Attack the individual confronting the behaviour

- Reverse Victim and Offender

This pattern is used to deflect responsibility, avoid accountability, and reframe the person who raises a concern as the aggressor. 

It’s important to note: not all use of these tactics is intentional or malicious. Some people use DARVO reflexively when feeling criticised or threatened. "

Again, this is the AI's output (unedited, except for blanking out the other person's name):

“ An objective review was conducted by an external analyst (ChatGPT) of both forum conversations involving Bunny — one concerning the term "male menopause" and the other on "dog training methods." The purpose of the review was to assess whether either party (Bunny or xxxxxx) used DARVO tactics, and to evaluate the overall tone, fairness, and reasoning used by both.

The conclusion was clear: Bunny did not use DARVO tactics in either discussion. She remained focused on addressing factual claims, provided evidence from credible sources (e.g., NHS, NICE, PDSA), and avoided personal attacks or emotional manipulation. Her tone was assertive, but she did not deny her own behaviour, reverse roles, or attempt to portray herself as a victim.

In contrast, xxxxx’s responses demonstrated a recognisable DARVO pattern across both threads:

- Denial – He dismissed or reframed clear factual corrections, often continuing to assert points contradicted by mainstream sources.

- Attack – He questioned Bunny’s motives, suggesting misandry, ideological agendas, or condescension, rather than addressing the substance of her points.

- Reversal of Victim and Offender – He frequently portrayed himself as the wronged party while avoiding responsibility for his own misrepresentations or inflammatory framing.

The review noted that Bunny’s responses showed cognitive flexibility and a focus on clarity and accountability, even under pressure. She consistently challenged ideas rather than individuals, and did so using reasoned arguments rather than deflection or personal critique.

This message is not intended to inflame tensions or restart debate, but to provide clarity. Bunny sought neutral input to ensure that her contributions were fair and proportionate, and the analysis strongly supports that they were. "

Hopefully, this helps any readers of those threads to understand the nature of the exchanges more clearly.

Parents
  • When I first saw this thread 2 days ago, I replied to say I was sorry to hear that Bunny was thinking of leaving and hoped she would stay. I still think that, but having now had time to read and digest this thread fully and also the threads that caused it, I would like to add my thoughts.

    The male menopause: My interpretation was that Iain's reference to "male menopause" was using it as a colloquial term to refer to the symptoms men may have at a similar age, including loss of libido (which is what the thread was originally about), while Bunny was pointing out the literal interpretation - that men do not have a menopause - while acknowledging that there may be something going on with men too which may need medical attention. I see no problem with either viewpoint.

    Dog training: Iain gave advice to another poster about dog training, which included the words Alpha energy/behaviour. Bunny interpreted this as advising an outmoded type of training that highlights dominance over a dog in an unkind way. However I did not see anything in Iain's advice encouraging cruelty or using methods that would make a dog frightened, and alpha just means first or most important, meaning that the dog is fed after the owner and the owner takes control of when the dog is walked, etc. That approach can still be done with kindness and rewards. I just viewed this as a misunderstanding.

    Iain did use the terms "old woman" and " woke" which I suggest would have been better to leave out.

    However when he replied to Bunny about dog training methods, explaining his understanding of dog psychology and that he was not advocating cruelty, plus posting a link to a dog training website, Bunny replied that she was glad he had read up on the latest dog training advice, even if he hadn't changed his thinking. I felt that this sounded a little condescending. I did not see any DARVO tactics in either post.

    I am also very surprised that the mods gave approval for a post containing a response from an AI. Having completed a short open university course on AI, my understanding is that they are not impartial - because they are programmed and trained by humans, they tend to pick up unconscious bias from their trainers. So in my view an analysis by an AI is no more valid than an analysis by any human.

    I do not intend this to be critical of either party, or taking sides - I believe it was just misunderstandings and differences of opinion which caused this situation. I value both Bunny and Iain as members of this community and I hope they both stay.

  • Thank you for your thoughtful and well-intentioned reply. 

    It's clear you've spent a lot of time reading everything, and I feel that your goal of finding a peaceful solution is clear. However, I do also feel that there are some key misunderstandings in your interpretation, and I hope you'll allow me to clarify my perspective without it coming across as a personal attack on you (which it isn’t).

    I only learned about DARVO after I joined this community and found myself on the receiving end of it several times. I researched whether it was a recognised pattern of behaviour, and quickly found that it was. 

    This Guardian article explains more about DARVO. As the term's originator explains, “Normalising DARVO is colluding and harmful”, and I sincerely hope that doesn’t happen in this community. As she also explains, when someone knows about DARVO, it is harder for someone else to use it against them, because they know what to look for in the other person’s behaviour. 

    Based on my previous experience and research, I believed that it was again being used against me in both threads, and I confirmed that via the AI's review. I didn’t use AI because I thought it was infallible and provided an ultimate, unbiased truth, but rather as a tool to identify specific communication patterns. I didn’t introduce any bias myself, and its output also helped me to articulate the dynamics of the situation, which I was struggling to put into words.

    It was also very helpful to me personally, given that some other members here - yourself included - don’t seem to have recognised the use or impact of DARVO. 

    But why would you, if you haven’t been subjected to it repeatedly, before then learning about it, and being better able to spot it happening? So this is not a criticism, just an observation about the value of a tool that is well-equipped to analyse conversations in this way.

    To same time and energy, I won’t go over both threads here. I’ll instead try and keep it as brief as I can in explaining how Iain used DARVO in the dog thread and how he really was championing dominance theory the whole time.

    I’ll call dominance theory DT, and positive reinforcement training PRT.

    1. In his opening post, replying to pdaddio83, Iain’s post included these key elements, all of which relate to the core tenets of DT:

    “IF you are giving of a fear response then the dog will treat you as a lesser pack member and try to assert dominance over you. This is how the pecking order is established in their world so it will help a lot if you can get over this.

    The others are right about getting the dog trained, but I think you will need to be trained as well. For effective ownership of a dog you need to be consistent, exhibit alpha energy and behaviour (in order to be seen as an authority figure).”

    2. I replied to pdaddio83 explaining that Iain’s thinking was flawed and outdated, supported by evidence. The whole affair could have ended right there. And I sincerely wish that it had done.

    3. Instead, Iain replied to me. He claimed to understand the current thinking around dog psychology, but claimed that: “it still requires the owner to be an authority figure BUT with an understanding of both the dogs body language and their psychology to be an effective owner.”

    With this reply, he seemed to acknowledge and understand PRT, but continued to focus on the need to be seen as an authority figure (debunked) and on his interpretation of their psychology (which is based on old, DT thinking, as becomes increasingly clear).

    To support his claims, he quoted an excerpt from an article that referred to dogs in households establishing “loose situational hierarchies”.

    He used this to claim that a dog owner needs to “understand” and “manipulate” the “hierarchies” and that, as the “authority figure”, you need to “correct the dog” in respect of undesirable behaviour.

    PRT, by contrast, focuses on rewarding desired behaviours to encourage them being repeated, not punishing undesirable ones.

    DT does not need to involve “cruelty”, which Iain does make clear he is not advocating. But he still reasserts that “the hierarchy is very real” and his suggestion of using applied psychology and practical steps is still in the context of being an authority figure (ie being the human equivalent of the alpha of the pack, per (debunked) DT).

    4. I replied to Iain. I explained that he had misinterpreted the article’s excerpt and that it described relationships between dogs in multi-dog households, not those between dogs and their owners. 

    The idea of a hierarchy between owner and dog is outdated thinking, based on (debunked) DT.  

    I explained that the article he’d quoted actually argued the opposite of his view:

    ”Modern science has completely debunked the alpha dog and dominance hierarchy theories and that “Building a relationship based on trust and clear communication is the goal, not establishing yourself as the “alpha.””

    5. Iain’s response was to throw doubt on the credibility, as sources of reliable information, of sites that promote PRT - including the one that he’d misquoted to try and support a key element of his DT-based thinking.

    In doing so, he referred to PRT as “woke dog training”, which made his real views on it very clear.

    He then demonstrated confirmation bias by refocused back onto “the old way”, which “has proven very successful as it ties into the instincts of dogs”. And that “The appropriate application of psychology, boundaries and training used in conjunction with observation of the behaviour exhibited by the dog has been used by most dog trainers through history.

    He then sought to defend his position by reference to his personal experience of owing and training four dogs, and confirmed that he had used “the traditional techniques”.

    All of this was very clearly a continued effort to assert that (debunked) DT is effective and reliable, including because he’d repeatedly used it himself.

    6. In my reply, I provided Iain with overwhelming evidence that DT is outdated and that only PRT should now be used, including referring to messaging from a host of leading UK charities, the government, and the Animal Behaviour and Training Council. This left no realistic, viable basis on which he could continue promoting either his preferred DT or even any kind of hybrid PFT-DT model. 

    I also took the opportunity to disengage, due to what I recognised as his DARVO behaviour, including his continuing refusal to acknowledge that his original suggestion had been ill advised. 

    Included among these exchanges is the comment that I made about being (genuinely) glad that Iain had at least read about PRT and perhaps, initially at least, to be adapting his rigid views.

    I did wonder, at the time, whether it might be taken the wrong way, and, clearly, it has been. But I can understand why, and I appreciate that I could and should have expressed that particular view in a different way. One small slip of stylistic judgement on my part in the face of an onslaught of disingenuous engagement from Iain is, I hope, understandable and forgivable. 

    If we then fast-forward to this thread: 

    In his response to  , Iain tried the only remaining option that might enable him to avoid taking accountability for having given bad advice: he tried to claim that he had never advocated anything to do with DT in the first place.

    In support of this, he relied on trying to “sell” a gross misrepresentation of what he originally meant by alpha energy and behaviour. Remember, this is something that he originally recommended in the context of (debunked) pack theory, and the (debunked) need to establish dominance and authority over the dog - rather than allowing the dog to take the (debunked) dominant role. And he’d repeatedly championed DT in his subsequent replies to me.

    Given all that had gone before - including his true views on PRT being revealed when his mask slipped momentarily (woke dog training) - this attempt to redefine what he meant by "alpha" is so brazen as, for me, to be almost beyond belief. As I’ve shown in this recap, it is demonstrably untrue. 

    However for a DARVO user, it is a logical final throw of the dice.

    By trying to twist the meaning and ignore the original context of his claims about the word “alpha”, Iain might still manage to persuade some people that he was right all along - and this is all just one big misunderstanding.

    That would amount to a DARVO job very well done from Iain’s perspective, including successfully painting me as an unreasonable aggressor who has attacked and misunderstood him throughout. 

    These two (now three) threads are far from the first time that Iain has tried to twist the facts and the narrative to enable himself to avoid taking responsibility for ill-advised things that he’s said.

    As you can see, trying to debate with someone who uses these tactics can be exhausting and upsetting. And his repeated use of them against me is bullying.

    I don't feel there should be any place for that kind of behaviour in this community.

  • You are correct that my goal was finding a peaceful solution.

    I understand that you were upset, and there is no problem with using the AI to help you analyse the situation for your own peace of mind, but I feel that rather than posting that here you should have reported it to the mods to deal with.

    As this thread has caused distress to some other community members, I don't feel it's useful to discuss this any further.

Reply
  • You are correct that my goal was finding a peaceful solution.

    I understand that you were upset, and there is no problem with using the AI to help you analyse the situation for your own peace of mind, but I feel that rather than posting that here you should have reported it to the mods to deal with.

    As this thread has caused distress to some other community members, I don't feel it's useful to discuss this any further.

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