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Can I clarify whether of not I understand the definition of Theory of Mind? I fear a bit of Dunning-Kruger effect on my part

mnugent2000

Calling fellow people with ASD, my curse of TL;DR, a simple question that becomes... this:

I understand that Theory of Mind means: 'the ability to understand that others have their own thoughts, feelings, and beliefs, which may be different from one's own'.

I am autistic and I get that intellectually but I feel like I must be missing something here.

How does theory of mind (ToM) impact relationships?

Assuming people are not bad people with terrible political takes upsets them a lot, is that ToM?

Assuming people have good vocabularies upsets people a lot, is that ToM?

Assuming people will not take a dim view of my subjective interests only to be disappointed then pulling them up for making it obvious I'm upset about their response, this upsets them a lot, is that ToM?

Am I supposed to apologize for giving people the benefit of the doubt? Am I supposed to edit the way I speak, my better takes and enthusiasms to make space for bad takes so people with bad takes don't get offended? Seems like a take on 'trying, reading and being thoughtful on things before committing to a strong opinion/being authentic is bad' and 'using careless heuristic takes based on little but groupthink and deindividuation is good actually' to me.

It's not that I'm invulnerable to making decisions and reflexive responses without thinking first but experience, I'm 47, has shown me the times I regret are the times I DON'T put in the effort BEFORE committing to a POV. While I don't like to upset people if they are wrong, what special angels are never wrong, not me that is for sure. IMO that's a them problem, what I HATE is upsetting people only to find out later they were right and I was wrong because I didn't do the work first.

Why? I hate being talked down to by people who haven't done the work as if I'm wrong and they are right when I KNOW they are wrong and I'm right and I can explain it to them in excruciating detail through 4 different disciplines with quotes, graphs and if you give me time, a laptop and the right resources, and if necessary, Harvard referencing.

I think I'm OK at these things, I did a counselling theory course back before my diagnosis, but it might be a Dunning-Kruger thing where I just think I get it because I'm not as good at it as I think I am. I still find most people and social situations hard to read when it expands past more than just me plus one other person with a lopsided interaction where I attend to them fully without checking in on my self enough for it to be a satisfying back and forth or I monologue at them trampling them, it is as if I get stuck exclusively on send or exclusively receive.ToM Infographic

Parents

  • Seems what you're saying there is that NT's ought to be having a bit more ToM just to match ours....?

  • in reply to Hazel_XXY

    I'm saying they pathologize it in us, we work on it, and it isn't returned.  Seems like we need to work they get it easy and still they don't honor the contract they demand that we do.

  • in reply to mnugent2000

    I think NT's and other ND's sometimes too, '...don't honour the contract..' People are so polarised, far more so than they were before, I've noticed particulalry since brexit, but that also coincided with the rise of social media platforms, everybody seem to have forgotten how to agree to disagree. I think people over emphasise a dislike of something and ASC's can be very sensitive to criticism and sometimes percieve criticism where none is intended. But that shouldn't take away from the fact that so many people seem to be a sense of offence looking for somewhere to manifest and they manifest opinions and outrage like projectile vomit. It's very confusing, NT's don't seem to care about fitting in, all they seem to care about is others fitting in with them, even and especially when their opinions are minority ones. I think it's hard for us ND's to work out whats real outrage and whats manufacuted outrage because thats what they think they ought to feel. I've started challenging, (.well not really I've always been challenging)  the assumptions of some of my NT friends, like the idea that "young people these days don't know what respect is", it's a common trope among the rightwing press thats aimed towards older readers and viewers. Often they don't know what they mean, some who are ex military say that young people will call senior officers by their anme instead of thier rank, I ask why thats disrespectful? Why should someone be respectful to someone who shows them no respect? We've not got anywhere with it, I think they just put it down to my general ASC weirdness and me being a bit of a rebel and generally not afraid to challenge those who believe they have authority.

  • in reply to TheCatWoman

    People act like norms are handed down from on high but some of them are from a process of generational trial and error and we got to a place that makes sense, but others are just daft introjected (uncritically unconsciously accepted) nonsense. 

    Normal isn't good or bad, it is what we are used to. 

    The way I see it ii we can never accept without question but also it's not smart to t reject on principle either.  Look at it, why is it like that?  Seek clarifications.  Why does that make sense?  If so, ok.  If not?  Yeah, that is rubbish, pass. 

    You can say I disagree, and here is why, and if that offends, if they don't have a convincing counterargument, that is their problem. It is possible to disagree while not being disagreeable.. thing is people don't like their norms challenged and that can lead to disagreeableness and that is when I think, I tried...HARD 'Yeah, if you aren't going to honor the contract, I don't see why I should either'. 

    I can turn off the 47 year old habitual masker switch and meet you at that level too bud.  Being nice isn't an absence it is the effort to not be a little Id (creative but antisocial drive) gremlin through the Freudian ego (mediator between Id and rules bases super-ego), if we are doing none of that super ego thing lets Id gremlin this. 

    I'm 6'3 (and until a couple of years ago I wasn't physically disabled) and usually smarter too and I have 41 years of undiagnosed ASD frustration to unload.  I have all that  stuff  I was pro-socially not saying I can say now.  Gloves off NT.

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  • in reply to TheCatWoman

    People act like norms are handed down from on high but some of them are from a process of generational trial and error and we got to a place that makes sense, but others are just daft introjected (uncritically unconsciously accepted) nonsense. 

    Normal isn't good or bad, it is what we are used to. 

    The way I see it ii we can never accept without question but also it's not smart to t reject on principle either.  Look at it, why is it like that?  Seek clarifications.  Why does that make sense?  If so, ok.  If not?  Yeah, that is rubbish, pass. 

    You can say I disagree, and here is why, and if that offends, if they don't have a convincing counterargument, that is their problem. It is possible to disagree while not being disagreeable.. thing is people don't like their norms challenged and that can lead to disagreeableness and that is when I think, I tried...HARD 'Yeah, if you aren't going to honor the contract, I don't see why I should either'. 

    I can turn off the 47 year old habitual masker switch and meet you at that level too bud.  Being nice isn't an absence it is the effort to not be a little Id (creative but antisocial drive) gremlin through the Freudian ego (mediator between Id and rules bases super-ego), if we are doing none of that super ego thing lets Id gremlin this. 

    I'm 6'3 (and until a couple of years ago I wasn't physically disabled) and usually smarter too and I have 41 years of undiagnosed ASD frustration to unload.  I have all that  stuff  I was pro-socially not saying I can say now.  Gloves off NT.

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