Can I clarify whether of not I understand the definition of Theory of Mind? I fear a bit of Dunning-Kruger effect on my part

I'm so sorry you aren't getting out what you put in.  I feel the same way almost all the time.  The exceptions are VERY exceptional. 

Cats and dogs are great, eh?  They aren't the minefield most people are and when they like you it is wonderfully uncomplicated.

People act like norms are handed down from on high but some of them are from a process of generational trial and error and we got to a place that makes sense, but others are just daft introjected (uncritically unconsciously accepted) nonsense. 

Normal isn't good or bad, it is what we are used to. 

The way I see it ii we can never accept without question but also it's not smart to t reject on principle either.  Look at it, why is it like that?  Seek clarifications.  Why does that make sense?  If so, ok.  If not?  Yeah, that is rubbish, pass. 

You can say I disagree, and here is why, and if that offends, if they don't have a convincing counterargument, that is their problem. It is possible to disagree while not being disagreeable.. thing is people don't like their norms challenged and that can lead to disagreeableness and that is when I think, I tried...HARD 'Yeah, if you aren't going to honor the contract, I don't see why I should either'. 

I can turn off the 47 year old habitual masker switch and meet you at that level too bud.  Being nice isn't an absence it is the effort to not be a little Id (creative but antisocial drive) gremlin through the Freudian ego (mediator between Id and rules bases super-ego), if we are doing none of that super ego thing lets Id gremlin this. 

I'm 6'3 (and until a couple of years ago I wasn't physically disabled) and usually smarter too and I have 41 years of undiagnosed ASD frustration to unload.  I have all that  stuff  I was pro-socially not saying I can say now.  Gloves off NT.

I'm fine with reciprocity, it's not an obscure word to me, it describes something completely absent from my real life, in fact the only time I get reciprocity is when greeting someone else's pet dog or cat. 

The conversations I have most anxiety about is with skilled communicators who invariably use their skill to gain leverage over me, and at the right moment claim that I'm abusing them, when they have manipulated it so that I never stood a chance - and all that pain and suffering casued to me just so they can pretend they 'won.' 

I think NT's and other ND's sometimes too, '...don't honour the contract..' People are so polarised, far more so than they were before, I've noticed particulalry since brexit, but that also coincided with the rise of social media platforms, everybody seem to have forgotten how to agree to disagree. I think people over emphasise a dislike of something and ASC's can be very sensitive to criticism and sometimes percieve criticism where none is intended. But that shouldn't take away from the fact that so many people seem to be a sense of offence looking for somewhere to manifest and they manifest opinions and outrage like projectile vomit. It's very confusing, NT's don't seem to care about fitting in, all they seem to care about is others fitting in with them, even and especially when their opinions are minority ones. I think it's hard for us ND's to work out whats real outrage and whats manufacuted outrage because thats what they think they ought to feel. I've started challenging, (.well not really I've always been challenging)  the assumptions of some of my NT friends, like the idea that "young people these days don't know what respect is", it's a common trope among the rightwing press thats aimed towards older readers and viewers. Often they don't know what they mean, some who are ex military say that young people will call senior officers by their anme instead of thier rank, I ask why thats disrespectful? Why should someone be respectful to someone who shows them no respect? We've not got anywhere with it, I think they just put it down to my general ASC weirdness and me being a bit of a rebel and generally not afraid to challenge those who believe they have authority.

I'm saying they pathologize it in us, we work on it, and it isn't returned.  Seems like we need to work they get it easy and still they don't honor the contract they demand that we do.

Seems what you're saying there is that NT's ought to be having a bit more ToM just to match ours....?

Thanks Iain, I'm not doing it on purpose and my education level is standard grades and evening class HNC over 2 years, I have had that reaction from people with uni degrees. 

It may be perceived as showing off but it genuinely isn't.  I don't have a million word selection options opened and select the most obscure one.  It is the one that occurs to me that fits what I want to say. 

I have a communications disorder - in fairness to those people I didn't know that at the time, decades of social masking, and I have been socially isolated for a while due to my back - I'd just like a bit of understanding and maybe not aggression because I agreed with someone .  I don't think it's too much to ask for. 

I appreciate the feedback.  Thanks again Iain.

mnugent2000 said:

The demand is for me to read their mind and adjust my behavior around word selection when I can't know their library of words they do or don't know.  They are being rude and acting as if I did something wrong and have something to apologise for. They condescend to me, they act out to innocent word selection invisible subjective boundary crossings,  but I'm the bad guy?  How?

I suspect what is happening here is down to one of the unspoken rules in society. The majority of society do not have your level of education/understanding or your vocabulary so when you interact with them, they expect you to use their level of dialogue.

When you start to use words that are uncommon (pithy being one example) then they see it as you either showing off your education or taking the pee out of them because they don't know what it means.

To them you are being rude by acting so high and mighty (in their eyes) and they feel quite reasonable in biting back with their comments.

There is a social expectation to adapt and fit in if you want to be accepted and the way we speak is just one of aspect of this. It includes why monologuing is found uncomfortable by others.

I'm not saying it is right, just telling you what I think lies behind the fact you are encountering so many of these situations.

If you can learn to "fit in" with your conversational style then it becomes much easier to have conversations with people, so I guess it is the price we have to pay if we want that acceptance. You don't have to do it of course but it seems from your discussions that you would like to understand why things work out as they have.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to get at.

All I'd say is to be careful about black and white thinking, especially when it comes to anything political.

Note the internet can be very polarised, and people stir things up to get clicks. A moderate sensible comment does not get many views. Take it as entertainment . Yes, some people think it is super important, but the majority, the silent moderate majority, ignore all this stuff and just get on with their lives, even if the media and activists want you to think otherwise.

People repeat things in real life because they think it is clever or can't be bothered to think or research stuff themselves. Avoid the people you disagree with, it is just unnecessary stress.

Try not to worry too much about things you can't change and focus on things you can.

And try to appreciate the good things around you, the birds singing, some flowers, a nice view, some tasty food. It keeps things in perspective.

I think I can do empathy but its a fluency thing. I think I can be set to send well or receive well.  Be a monologuer or an active listener, not seamlessly move between the 2 extremes.    I can be  blunt, insensitive and struggle to make emotional connections but I can also be thoughtful, sensitive and manage connections well with my unused counselling skills... well in the shirt to medium term til I burnout and can't maintain the skills.  

The counselling HNC really helped me understand myself and others and gave me tools to manage relationships more but counselling is a one sided relationship and it doesn't work in a personal relationships, there are reasons why sessions are 45 mins not hours.  It requires too much and ends in burnout even for allistic counsellors with professional supervision.  

People can hold opinions that do effect me, us, and I cannot roll with those that do. I wont.  I hear something, unless I really have done the work I try to remind myself to not have a strong opinion to lean in when I don't know and listen but there are a lot of antisocial stuff I will not tolerate like racism, ableism and transphobia etc associated as second order stuff to politics and media personalities like Andrew Tate.

Respect is baseline stuff and you cannot negotiate on it. There are conversations you cannot shrug about.  I'm not talk about  why my favorite Avenger is Captain America or pizza topping or my love of Nina Simone's song 'Feeling Good' and your has to be yours too, there is a baseline, when they are fundamentally wrong and it had political ramifications based on dehumanising others it is important and after 47 years I have had the 'Oh that is interesting, I have never thought of that before' thing then went and looked it up myself and got the idea I never thought of and in researching it and asking the right people the right questions to think of the right questions to get answers for I had got the idea concrete in my head.  ASD sense of justice, right? 

People think autistics are lazy, stupid or liars and I will not be disrespected like that, that attitude drives votes and votes take away accommodations and subsistence incomes for all the broken relationships that lead to worklessness not having ToM costs us.  Autistics are humans, we need rent and food too and those attitudes are the first step to terrible political consequences like Charles Lindbergh's baby or the work of eugenicist Johann Friedrich Karl Asperger.

I'm VERY used to rejection, I hate it, so I try to not be rejective, we all want to been seen but you have to have healthy boundaries too.  I just haven't had to think about it for a while as I barely speak to anyone since my back injury.

Thanks for the prompt response. I found the reply helpful.  Helped me feel seen I guess. Thanks

I think we are at cross purposes a few times here Iain.  Let me use examples. 

If I show my political stance assuming it is uncontroversial and someone is rude to me... I don't think that is me making a judgement on another person, that is me having an opinion and being verbally abused for not considering a reasonable person would have a problem with it before I offered it.  I'm scare to use specifics on this one.  I think I vaguely remember a guideline about this in the site rules.

A specific example of the vocab thing, again, I think we are at crossed purposes.  I have a few actually, came to me as I typed:

1.) I did an evening class, HNC Counselling, and I had a part of a project we had to present to the class.    In my segment, I remind everyone this word is a concept in counselling so common I was shocked that I go this response, I used the word 'reciprocity' .  The whole class, teacher included had a collective intake of breath so loud I looked up to see a room of faces showing horror. The lecturer even asked what it meant.  I was embarrassed... I asked do you know hat it is to reciprocate love?  I saw a lot of nodding and I said that is an act of reciprocity, you take and give ... it's kind of central to this subject.  I was big time angry at the response.  I was judged, not judging.  How the heck am I supposed to know what people know or don't know word selection-wise and accommodate it? 

2.) I have had people roll their eyes and sneer aggressively that I'm 'student'y' back in my mid-20s.

3.) I had a close pal fly into a rage while we had dinner because I agreed with him and used the word 'pithy' and he started screaming at me about how I lord it over him with big words.  Bud, it's 5 letters, I was agreeing with you and the lording bit? I had no idea you weren't following me and I don't think of you in any way les than..  that was HIS projection.

How is being talked down, open contempt, aggression and sarcasm in response to me enjoying WWE or comics or collecting figures or fantasy novels me judging them?  They are judging me.

The demand is for me to read their mind and adjust my behavior around word selection when I can't know their library of words they do or don't know.  They are being rude and acting as if I did something wrong and have something to apologise for. They condescend to me, they act out to innocent word selection invisible subjective boundary crossings,  but I'm the bad guy?  How?

I can't stand being about people, it's a mine field, be yourself ... not like that.  I hate it.  They demand you show up and treat you like an alien for nothing.  You think it is ok as a political stance to abuse disabled people for needing accommodations and PIP instead of collecting tax from tax avoiding entities like Google but I can't use certain perfectly useable words?  I can't enjoy a book they don't approve of or think I'd rather replay an old game I enjoy instead of go to the pub is unacceptable use of my free time? 

FYI I am ASD and have a physical disability so I can't work.  I am socially isolated, travel is painful.

I have been adverse to being around people who mistreat me so much I barely speak to anyone, I am very socially isolated.  The now unpracticed skills I learned on my counselling class gave me self esteem for the first time in my life in my then late 30s and I set boundaries and I operated an explicit 3 strikes rule.  Every person I put to the side was a win, thing is, I'm lonely.  Almost no one is left.  People talk a good game about wanting you to get better (I was diagnosed clinically depressed, agoraphobic and anxiety disorder... I suspect then misdiagnosed ASD, maybe comorbidities) but when you do start getting better they don't like the change in dynamics and push back at actual self esteem.

My parents are dead, don't really talk to my siblings, I text with a cousin and go to lunch with a niece when she can find time.  My monologuing I think has made her politely reduce the frequency, she says it is work related but I can clear out the dining area of the pub we go to lunch in when I go on a rant-y monologue about what is bothering me about US current affairs (a special interest).  I don't hear my volume go up and tbh I think the social obsession with not swearing is stupid considering fascism these days is a popular political opinion to hold.  Aktion T4?  S'fine. Say an F-bomb in a place they sell vodka?  Nope.  What?!

Thanks for the quick response Iain, I take responsibility if I was unclear, but in fairness it is a communications disorder.

I think it is about the ability to see things from someone else's perspective. To have empathy, you need to imagine you are in the same position they are and imagine how they feel, then respond appropriately. It is the ability to predict and understand other people's actions. You have to understand or be able to model their likely position to be able to predict.

If you cant do this I would imagine you will likely be blunt, insensitive and struggle to make emotional connections.

Without it you will likely talk based only on your position. You will not understand why if the other person does not agree as you can't see why they would not think the sane. You will then info dump to convince them of your view. If they do not agree, rather than try to have a dialogue and understand why they hold the views they do, you may assume they are just wrong. This can be overbearing, aggressive and unfriendly.

You need to understand the other person may not have the same info as you, they may not care, they may not think like you, they may be more or less clever than you,, they may have other motives, they may just want to be difficult, etc.  In summary, they are not a copy of you even if you give them the same info you have.

They may not be as well educated or have read as much and their vocabulary may be different. This does not make their views wrong, it just means they may express it differently to how you expect, or they may not understand you. So you need to reword what you are saying.

In practice you just have to accept you don't have to win in conversations, or change other people's views, most of the time it doesn't matter, they can be wrong or you may be wrong. If it really does matter then you have to find a way to agree.

You also have to have self awareness. Imagine someone is talking to you in the same way you are talking to them. Would you be upset at the tone, style or approach? If you would not like to be spoken to that way you can expect they will not react well either.

It is easy to get upset when someone does something to you, but not be able to see it when you do the same thing. A simple example might be to be upset if someone forgets your birthday, but not think they might feel the same if you forget.

You can't assume they will like the same things as you. Until you have a discussion you don't know what they like. But you have to accept they are different and may not like your topic.

You have to be able to take differences without getting too upset or emotional, or taking everything personally. You can disagree and be friends.

People may talk down to you if they to hink you don't know much or state something that is obviously wrong. The issue is to handle it politely and make sure your are certain if your facts.

mnugent2000 said:

How does theory of mind (ToM) impact relationships?

Assuming people are not bad people with terrible political takes upsets them a lot, is that ToM?

Assuming people have good vocabularies upsets people a lot, is that To

I don't think this is ToM but more you making a judgement on the other person based on their political take / vocabularies.

mnugent2000 said:

Assuming people will not take a dim view of my subjective interests only to be disappointed then pulling them up for making it obvious I'm upset about their response, this upsets them a lot, is that ToM?

Again here you have made a judgement on their opinions and acting on this by "pulling them up" over it. ToM would be accepting they have a dim view and accepting this.

mnugent2000 said:

Am I supposed to apologize for giving people the benefit of the doubt?

Who are you apologising to here? If you give a person the benefit of the doubt and they repeatedly let you down then you are showing you do not learn from experience. If this impacts someone else then I can understand their being a need to apologise to them but otherwise I would treat it as a learning opportunity and be averse to repeating it.

As for hating being talked down to when you know you are right, this is a life lesson. There are plenty of idiots with authority who make dumb decisions and as an underling it will go badly if you fight them over it. It sucks but if you want to keep your job you need to learn to emotionally disconnect from these situations and just do the job you are paid for.

This is no small feat and I found it takes the help of a psychotherapist to role play the practical applications and learn to compartmentalise the emotions so you are not wasting energy on muppets.

Working out what is worth spending your energy on is an awesome survival skill - I strongly advise learning it and most of the issues you describe slip away like tears in the rain.