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Christians vs Pagans

TheCatWoman

I've been doing quite a bit of reading about the Vikings recently and one of the things that really stands out and is only just being taken notice of by historians is the language used by the Church to decribe the raids, invasons and settlements by Scandinavian peoples from the mid 7thC CE and the 11thC CE.

They seem to have taken it as an attack on Christians and Christianity by Pagans, I sort of get where they're coming from when so many monastries were being raided, but the way in which its spoken of is very much the language of "holy war" in an organised way, which I really don't think it was, as raids continued long after most Vikings were officially Christian. There may have been a few who saw it that way, who resented the Church and what it stood for, which was a united Europe under the sway of the Church in Rome. But I dont' really read it that way, I think to anyone who's been brought up as or has been polytheist for a long time the idea of one god who does everything is strange and being baptised probably wasnit that well understood by those who were presauded to take it. They seem to have just added the CHristian god to thier existing pantheon, although I don't think pantheon is the right word to describe non classical Pagan religions, its more like a family or race of gods who live in another part of the worlds. I think Pagans, such as Vikings might make offerings to their Gods for success, or invite a God to come with them, but in a totally different way to how Christian both then and I think now see it.

Not being a Christian, I try and understand the monotheistic world view, but it just dosent' gel with me, it makes little sense, whereas Paganism in its many forms mostly do, not all forms of it, but most.

Another conclusion I've come to from all my reading is how much of a culture clash there was between the urban Roman church and the mostly rural Pagans they were trying to convert, for one thing, where there are no towns, cities and urban living, there couldn't be bishoprics, although these were imposed however nominal they were in practice and how the Christians thought that if the leaders of a particular group were baptised then it meant all the rest of the peoples they rules over would now be Christians too. Of course it didn't work like that, I wonder if many now supposedly CHristian people felt like we Autists do when confronted by NT's and their cultural dominance?

  • in reply to Martin

    So many names that we're told are Anglo-Saxon, aren't, many of them are Celtic, I think it might have been because so many Angles and Saxons were Foederati, or mercenaries as we would call them who were brought in by the Romans and stationed around Britain and particularly in the North. I think that many of their comanders were Britons and over the decades leading up to the official withdrawl of the legions, many comanders with mercenary groups just took over, hense the many small kingdoms such as Elmet and Lindsey. I'm not surprised that Penda is a Welsh name, there was lots of co-operation between the Welsh and the Anglo-Saxons, just as much as there was hostility, it was only when the Viking invasions really took off and they went from being raiders to settlers that you see nation building in England, as well as Europe and Scandinavia.

  • in reply to TheCatWoman

    Penda, a pagan with an apparently Welsh name - from 'pen' meaning 'eminent' - as seemingly had his father Pybba - 'pybyr' meaning 'staunch', 'strong'. Penda never fought the Welsh, he was always in alliance with them, and always fought Anglo-Saxon kings. Lots of conundrums in this period.

  • in reply to Martin

    Yeah that would be one example, but then look at Cadwallon of Gwynedd, he was Christian and an absolute murderous horrible man. I think its far more about culture than religion.

  • in reply to TheCatWoman

    Nailing the head and hands of an enemy king on a tree, for example?

  • in reply to Martin

    I've got a really good book on Penda, he really was a remarkable king, underestiimated and traduced by chroniclers of the time and since because of his Pagansim. Of course all the chroniclers were Christian and this is where I think the concept of religious war really starts to show, but Penda himself I think shows how to live in a multi-faith society. Before anyone jumps up on their hindlegs, he was a king of his time and a lot of the practices of the time are things I would not want repeated now.

  • in reply to Lotus

    I am with you on the attraction of nature, and although I see life, hope and something much bigger than ourselves in nature, I can’t think of anything much more than something all powerful and at one with the world and the entire universe. As an ex Christian, I am probably moulded by my upbringing and education, so I still look to Jesus of Nazareth for inspiration, as a philosophy of being human, though not as God. Since the last century, Christianity has evolved in its theology of the importance of caring for nature and wildlife, and that is welcome. 

  • I consider myself post-theist (don't really think about it most of the time) but if I had to choose between paganism and Christianity I think I'd prefer paganism, which seems more linked to nature, while monotheistic religions feel like they're more about politics to me. I do think that Jesus of Nazareth set a mostly good example of how to live a good life though.

  • I think that in a world without many of the now known scientific facts, people would  be attracted to whatever they believe would benefit them - faith, spirituality, culture, politics, power etc.

    Today in many parts of the world, people have a free choice over beliefs and faith in religions, paganism, atheism or whatever, and some do change religion. Monotheists have compelling arguments on the irrationality, as they see it, of gods as opposed to God. I don’t think it can be compared to how autists see the world, but I do accept that for some there might be an analogy.

  • I know that King Penda of Mercia, one of the last pagan Anglo-Saxon kings, was seemingly quite happy to rule over and ally with Christians. All of his children were eventually baptised, three of his daughters were later venerated as saints.