Equality - what is it?

Lotus 3 months ago

I've always thought it would be good to have a more equal society. I don't understand why people think it's ok for some to be rich due to inherited wealth or because of the family they were born into or what school they attended or because they got 'famous'. I also don't understand why most people just seem to accept the fact that there is such a huge discrepancy between the highest paid and lowest paid workers.

I'm a bit of a weirdo politics wise - I strongly support freedom and personal choice & independence, but I'm also a socialist in many ways as I believe a society should take care of its vulnerable members and I also like the idea of cooperatives and nationalised industries, where many benefit rather than a select few. I don't want to get into a politics debate, this is just to explain what some of my beliefs and ideas are behind my ponderings.

I know it's difficult to determine exactly what is meant by a fair and equal society. Is it fair that a doctor gets paid more than a builder? We need doctors, but we also need homes. Is it fair that someone gets paid loads because they are intelligent and got a law degree, while someone else with a lower IQ works two minimum wage jobs to just barely make ends meet? Should everyone be paid the same rate per hour? Is it ok for some to live in tiny cramped flats while others live in huge houses and some have multiple homes?

I'm not expecting anything to change - I've accepted that the world is what it is. But just as a theoretical exercise, if human society were to be re-started how would you structure it to make things more equal? Or do you think there shouldn't be equality - that some should be rewarded more for things like having a degree or being skilled at acting or playing a sport?

Parents

Iain 3 months ago

Lotus said:
Is it fair that a doctor gets paid more than a builder?

In a nutshell - absolutely.

To become a doctor you need to be very intelligent (to pass all the exams and practicals), have incredible resiliance (to cope with the crazy hours), be very skillful (to be able to administer the medical procedures / operations) and have the skills to deal with people often having the worst day of their lives.

For a builder - say a bricklayer for a lower level role - there are probaby 6 months of training and they can do the job. They typically work office hours (more or less) and have to work in harsh conditions sometimes (they don't tend to work when it is freezing as the cement does not work in those conditions with its water content).

So 6 months of a college course and on the job training and occassionaly harsh-ish working conditions.

A doctor has to go to uni to get a medical degree (4 years typically and very competetive), then a further 3 years at medical school before being brought in as a trainee in a hospital to go through years more of on the job training and testing.

So a doctor needs about 9 years of highly challenging study before they get the title of doctor.

They they then have literally life and death decisions to make of a daily basis, saving lives, saving people from pain, often working on medical research to advance patient care and still working obscene amounts of hours to do all of this.

Looking at those facts it seems clear the doctor is worth about 20 times what a bricklayer is worth, not just for the skill and dedication it took them to get there but for what they do day-to-day and the effort it takes.

Lawyers have a similar route to their title but once in work they are less involved in life and death situations typically and can have much more of a normal working life ( I know that not all do).

The entry level jobs are ones that a doctor could do no doubt with some hands on training but I don't think a bricklayer could remove my appendix (without getting cement all over my liver). So a lot of the value caculation is that the lower positions can be done by so many more people that they are not really that demanding over all.

You see this start to be more obvious in a recession when lots of more skilled workers are laid off and are competing for jobs like barristas or bartenders.

So when we look at this it becomes clear we cannot be equal and give the skilled people the incentive to go through the challenges it takes to reach their required skill level.

Think of it as if you were offered 2 jobs paying the same. One starts next week and you can walk in and get shown to lay bricks while the other needs 9 years of training before you get paid and then you only earn the same as the bick laying gig.

I think the best we can ever hope for is fair, not equal.

Reply

Iain 3 months ago

Lotus said:
Is it fair that a doctor gets paid more than a builder?

In a nutshell - absolutely.

To become a doctor you need to be very intelligent (to pass all the exams and practicals), have incredible resiliance (to cope with the crazy hours), be very skillful (to be able to administer the medical procedures / operations) and have the skills to deal with people often having the worst day of their lives.

For a builder - say a bricklayer for a lower level role - there are probaby 6 months of training and they can do the job. They typically work office hours (more or less) and have to work in harsh conditions sometimes (they don't tend to work when it is freezing as the cement does not work in those conditions with its water content).

So 6 months of a college course and on the job training and occassionaly harsh-ish working conditions.

A doctor has to go to uni to get a medical degree (4 years typically and very competetive), then a further 3 years at medical school before being brought in as a trainee in a hospital to go through years more of on the job training and testing.

So a doctor needs about 9 years of highly challenging study before they get the title of doctor.

They they then have literally life and death decisions to make of a daily basis, saving lives, saving people from pain, often working on medical research to advance patient care and still working obscene amounts of hours to do all of this.

Looking at those facts it seems clear the doctor is worth about 20 times what a bricklayer is worth, not just for the skill and dedication it took them to get there but for what they do day-to-day and the effort it takes.

Lawyers have a similar route to their title but once in work they are less involved in life and death situations typically and can have much more of a normal working life ( I know that not all do).

The entry level jobs are ones that a doctor could do no doubt with some hands on training but I don't think a bricklayer could remove my appendix (without getting cement all over my liver). So a lot of the value caculation is that the lower positions can be done by so many more people that they are not really that demanding over all.

You see this start to be more obvious in a recession when lots of more skilled workers are laid off and are competing for jobs like barristas or bartenders.

So when we look at this it becomes clear we cannot be equal and give the skilled people the incentive to go through the challenges it takes to reach their required skill level.

Think of it as if you were offered 2 jobs paying the same. One starts next week and you can walk in and get shown to lay bricks while the other needs 9 years of training before you get paid and then you only earn the same as the bick laying gig.

I think the best we can ever hope for is fair, not equal.

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