As above.
As above.
It has been commonly said that autistics have poor theory of mind.
After several months of having interactions with autistics of low support needs, high support needs and self-realised, I'm more inclined to believe Dr. Damian Milton's theory of double empathy
https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/professional-practice/double-empathy
One of my prouder moments last year was distilling this theory into the following, and the good doctor himself (Damian, not the TV guy!) saying that he liked it.
When I was thinking about the often-cited patronising “theory of mind”, I came up with this in relation to your idea:
The last three are largely ignored by the ‘experts’ – and they shorten ‘Allistic Mind’ to just ‘Mind’
But…! Even though Autistic people have a poor Theory or Allistic Mind, it is a damn sight better then the Allistic people’s Theory of Autistic Mind.
Autistic people have good Theory of Autistic Mind
I don't think this is really the case though.
I read on here regularly of autistic people who keep repeating the same ineractions and failing (eg dating, trying to make friends etc) and they admit it is because they don't know the "rules" yet they will not go and learn these rules which would make the interactions easier.
Maybe it is the trait of change aversion that some do not want to learn and evolve because that involves change - there is probably a myriad reasons contributing, but it does reflect that we have a great deal of autists who will not help themselves in some situations.
Yep, understood - Perhaps tho' there is also an element of the "hard wiring" of the brain that means that for neurotypical people they don't need to "learn the rules" - since they are subconsciously applied by them. The typical delay that autistic people experience in interactions that is filled up by formulating a response that "fits the rules" in itself marks us as being "other" to neurotypical people perhaps. Recognition in neurotypical society that this is normal behaviour for autistic people and is no less valid than a neurotypical one (perhaps even more valid as it is more considered... ) would perhaps allow us to meet in the middle ground more often :-)
Yep, understood - Perhaps tho' there is also an element of the "hard wiring" of the brain that means that for neurotypical people they don't need to "learn the rules" - since they are subconsciously applied by them. The typical delay that autistic people experience in interactions that is filled up by formulating a response that "fits the rules" in itself marks us as being "other" to neurotypical people perhaps. Recognition in neurotypical society that this is normal behaviour for autistic people and is no less valid than a neurotypical one (perhaps even more valid as it is more considered... ) would perhaps allow us to meet in the middle ground more often :-)
Thanks Iain I come back to the neurological basis of autism - the very structure of an adult autistic brain means the person is disabled in the same way as someone who has a mild hearing impairment or partial deafness has a physiological cause for it. Society understands (or at least the part that can be bothered to...) that adaptations in how one communicates with such people are necessary in order for social inclusivity - not to do so would be widely unacceptable in neurotypical society. The same process is not unreasonable to be expected for autistic people in my belief. :-) Hehe - I can dream anyway...
I concur - I think that the crux of this issue is that the NT have no insight into ND. ND are waking up quicker to the problems they've been facing than the NT world is. There are strong social pressures for ND to adapt and limited social support to facilitate this. On a separate post you have inquired about any ideas about how things could be improved for autistic adults without government funding. There is perhaps a role for ND people to collectively increase awareness by their actions - however I'm not sure that as a group we are best placed or equipped to do so - I come back to the diagnostic criteria that suggest our capability in relationships and social behaviour by their very nature mean we are disadvantaged and dare I say it lack capability to do so. We certainly are outnumbered in a democratic sense. I regret to say this may mean pushing more to be properly recognised as disabled from a societal point of view. Then collective action to ensure that equality legislation is followed and contraventions prosecuted might be a way? PS I'll post this response too on the appropriate post.if that's OK
I regret to say that downplaying the disability does not help.
I get what you mean here - I am not saying we should be ignored.
I am commenting on the realistic chances of this happening (ie the 99 learning new stuff to help the 1) in todays society.
Forcing change will only bring resentment I fear so a longer, more subliminal approach is most likely to have the desired effect.
The reference I made about learning sign language was more about NTs having to learn it - much as they would have to in order to interact with autists in the way you want.
Considering the "worthiness" or making sign language or autism understanding a priority it helps to look at the stats.
Deaf people - 1,2 million in the UK have hearing loss severe enough that they would not be able to hear most conversational speech.
Autists - 1.4 million autists with (my estimate) half having serious social communication issues., so 0.7 million.
This means there are almost twice the number of deaf people than autists needing understanding so why are we not asking people to learn sign language?
This is only to illustrate the point - we are a very small minority and there are many other minorities (some much larger) who are also deserving.
We cannot expect NTs to learn skills to deal with all groups so do we prioritise, lobby, force the situation or be patient and keep working to change things slowly and positively.
Personally I think that since we can learn to help ourselves then the onus should be on us to do so, ideally with support from the likes of NAS. Deaf people by comparison cannot learn to hear so it seems the responsible approach in my opinion.
Altered Development of Amygdala-Connected Brain Regions in Males and Females with Autism | Journal of Neuroscience the internal structure of the brain is such that the people concerned find it far more difficult... in the case of this study linking the developmental experiences you describe and the way the brain is constructed and therefore able to work. To use your analogy, your suggestion is that the people who find it most difficult to learn and express sign language are the ones most required to learn it and use it with problems in getting their brain to connect to moving their hands. This in order to communicate with those who do it with absolute ease intuitively. Pragmatically I concur that the expectation of those "99 people" all bothering to realise and change is society is unlikely. Suppose tho' that the proportion of society who cannot climb stairs are not recognised by society in the rules for design and construction of public buildings? In so far as education and training in respect of neurotypical society I consider explaining the need and ensuring they recognise and accomodate autistic needs in a similar fashion. I equally agree that there is always possibility of neurological growth and development - with the right support, environment and motivation. I regret to say that downplaying the disability does not help.
why aren't the NTs expected to learn ND?
For the same reason everyone is not required to learn sign language in order to communicate with deaf people - we are just such a small minority that it isn't sensible to do.
We make up around 2% of the population and only a part of this has the communication issues - say half as a conservative number.
It would mean that 99 people would have to learn how to communicate with the 1 in any group of 100 people.
That would probably turn loads of them against us for being the tail trying to wag the dog.
I understand what you are saying and I have tried to do this myself.
However, we haven't just moved to another country where everyone speaks the language of that country, we're in a world where two neurological "languages" are spoken. If I had been born in Wales, I would expect to have to learn Welsh as well as English. So if we have to learn NT, why aren't the NTs expected to learn ND?
Should we have to learn it?
It is analogous to living in a country where you never really learned the language. You know enough to get by but never really get into conversations or have people want to talk to you much.
If you want to engage with them on their terms then you need to learn their language.
However don't expect all of them to learn your language in order to speak with you.
It can be really hard work to learn the language so you have to want to do it and keep at it in spite of the difficulties because the end result is worth it.
That is the analogy that makes most sense to me.
It all blinking hard work though but I believe we are all capable of doing it to some degree of another but many give up too easily.
Great post Iain, very thought provoking.
You say we don't observe well in our formative years, partly due to too much sensory input, but I think that carries on into adult life. If you are overwhelmed by your environment and/or your own emotional state, how can you have the capacity to "read" what someone else may be thinking or feeling?
Body language is also an issue. If we are anxious we may fidget with things or not be able to maintain eye contact - that is often read by neurotypical people as showing that someone is lying or untrustworthy. But if I see that behaviour in a person, I don't automatically think that - I would try to find out why they are behaving that way. I don't think NTs always get it right, I think they just don't usually think they are wrong. Look at the conflict in their relationships.
I know the rules about making friends such as smiling, how to initiate conversation, and so on, but if something happens to make you feel nervous, what are the rules that help an autistic adult become able to not fidget and look someone in the eye? Can that be learned? Should we have to learn it?
Thanks for your reply. At such a formative age as your discussion outlines the developing brain is forming connections and architecture in what I described as the "hard wiring" of the brain. This according the neuroplastic nature of the developing brain. The conclusion that they reached may be correct in the origin of social issues and also be present in the neurophysiology of the brain structure. (this get around the nature/nurture chicken/egg issue although it is recognised that there is a herditary component to the condition.) For example some studies indicate physiological differences in the connections with the amygdala (key role emotional processing) in autistic brains. I am perhaps wrong in suggesting that autistic people cannot by hard work improve connections and function in the mature brain to enhance social interaction and understanding. Perhaps a better analogy would be that of the communication between regions of the brain is achieved via pathways or roads for one reason or another the autistic brain has grown the equivalent of minor roads in some areas where the neurotypical brain has 4 lane highways...
Perhaps tho' there is also an element of the "hard wiring" of the brain that means that for neurotypical people they don't need to "learn the rules" - since they are subconsciously applied by them.
I did explore this subject with a group of therapists I know in Canada and they fairly quickly concluded this isn't the case.
NTs learn by observation, interaction and adaptation with lots of mimicking. Where NDs suffer is we don't observe as well in our formative years through a mix of struggling with too much sensory input, self defencive approaches of staying away - or being excluded and removing ourself for our special interests.
We miss a great deal of the mass learning opportunities our peers have, where we do witness them we often don't understand them and when we come to apply them we often fail because we mimic poorly.
The social issues of autists are a bit of a special interest of mine which is why we were talking about it.
Recognition in neurotypical society that this is normal behaviour for autistic people and is no less valid than a neurotypical one
A huge problem is that autists are so very varied in the presentation of their traits. Some have few issues in social interaction, some have learned to mask / script so are sometimes passable and some fall to bits when trying - we are all over the place so it makes NTs look at us and find it really hard to get a handle on what an autist looks/acts like as we are all different.
