Manager saying I was combative and rude

Literal_Joe said:

The Equality Act is at play, and relevant here, as the law requires an employer to make reasonable adjustments for a disabled employee

And my point remains that there are no reasonable adjustments you can make for something that is not governed or controlled such as "the Social Rules of Life" that you refer to.

You may as well try to herd cats - it will not happen as what you are trying to make everyone do is not within your control to do so.

Literal_Joe said:

It's not about "forcing the will" of the 2% onto the 98% ... It's about the 98% accepting, and indeed understanding, the differences in the 2%

You are trying to force them to accept/understand - exactly what I said. You can ask them to do this but to force them to do so is folly.

I think we are reaching the point where I am saying one thing and you are misunderstanding it - repeatedly.

I lack the patience to correct you any further. I'm out.

You're missing the point again Iain ...

It's not about "forcing the will" of the 2% onto the 98% ... It's about the 98% accepting, and indeed understanding, the differences in the 2%

The Equality Act is at play, and relevant here, as the law requires an employer to make reasonable adjustments for a disabled employee (of which I'm sure you're aware), and ASD fits within that category.

We're all different. Just like you wouldn't tell someone in a wheelchair to get up and walk up the stairs, there needs to be far more understanding of 'hidden disabilities', and the impacts and struggles that brings with it (hence the Equality Act being part of our laws)

Literal_Joe said:

It is not okay, to use your example, for 'us' to have to do something that 98% of people say we should do/or in a way that they say

I'm sorry you feel this way.

There is no chance it will change however as there is no central body controlling the rules or governing them. It is an organic system that evolves as the majority evolves so wanting to force the will of the 2% onto the 98% will never happen.

And it is worth noting that the 2% who are autistic are not all the same. Some never had  problem with the social rules, some (like myself) have come to accept them so you end up with a dwindeling percentage trying to enforce their will on the vast majority.

The Equality Act has no jurisdiction here.

Reasonable Adjustments is most likely to take the form of auditory or visual adjustments or perhaps a change in how instructions are passed to the individual. I don't see it being relevant here.

My view is that you may as well shout at the wind for all the impact it will have.

Sorry Iain, but I think you're missing the point!! It is not okay, to use your example, for 'us' to have to do something that 98% of people say we should do/or in a way that they say ... This is precisely why we have the Equality Act, and reasonable adjustments.

Social rules are not laws, they simply establish the parameters as in those with whom we 'roll', and those we just don't - Like any relationship actually 

Cloud44 said:

they are socially constructed, so why are they right and we are wrong?

Who said they were right? They are simply the will of the majority (the 98% non autistic majority that is).

You may as well take exception the language having irregular verbs as it doesn't make sense to you. They should all be regular.

In essence, the rules exist, they are pretty well signposted in books if you are interested to study them and are not going to change because you don't understand it.

You can either deal with it by learning or you can remain ignorant and complain - that is my approach.

I don't see any point in thinking "if only" as it will never happen and is just a waste of thinking power.

Totally agree 

I always think, everyone is born is a blank slate, no one is born knowing social rules. Some people can learn them, some people cannot. But they are socially constructed, so why are they right and we are wrong? The autistic way is much simpler, every one knows where they stand, things get sorted, no one is making things over compilated.

The social 'rules' of life are something I've never understood ... Say what you mean, and mean what you say, that's the rules I follow ... I cannot ever fathom why telling someone what they want to hear/changing what you say because you're considering their feelings, is the right way to go about it. Boggles me

Ah this just explains why my manager was annoyed when I once sent a very similar e-mail. It was about sick leave, they weren't going to pay so I noted a rule in the contract but she hated that I'd pointed it out. I think she felt I was undermining her. I guess I was supposed to be more subtle in my response.

I've been told many times that I don't 'play the game'. The game sounds too complicated to me, the NT world is a confusing place :-(

I’m quite matter of fact and straightforward in email comms too and I’ve found this AI tool to be really helpful when either sending emails or judging emails I receive especially in the workplace Hope it helps you too: goblin.tools/Formalizer

I totally get this, as similar things happen to me all the time (hence why I've named myself 'literal_Joe'!!)

To me, I'm just saying what I need to say, asking the question/s I need to ask, and pointing out any errors in the approach of others (rules - need I say more?!?). But often the response from neuro typical people is exactly as you describe - In that you're blunt and challenging 

IrishInManchesterUK said:

I would see any other attempts at resolution as being nothing more than formalities and hoops that one would have to go through in the corrupt legal process that sides with abusive employers

Surprisingly most legal systems are not biassed in my experience, but the process of using the in tricky - you need good, experienced advice to build your case and make it unappealing for an employer to want to go down this route.

At the end of the day the company really doesn't care about you as an individual and it is likely to be a numbers game for them when deciding if any legal process is worth persuing. If they (ie the managers) have messed up and there is a chance a sympathetic judge would side with you then they are much better off either trying to rehabilitate you into the workplace and let the manager push you out using a process of attrition (ie making you want to leave) or if it is too far gone, to just pay you out.

The only people who win at the end of the day are the solicitors / lawyers.

IrishInManchesterUK said:

I would refuse all offers of out of court settlement and proceed direct to court hearing and would relentlessly pursue it all the way to the highest courts possible, if I considered that the principles involved were sufficiently and fundamentally serious 

If you won your first court battle then that is as far as it goes - but if you loose (such as you refer to taking it to a higher court) then you need deep, deep pockets to pay lawyers to do it and of course if you loose then you have to pay the other sides legal costs as well as your own, and quite possible any fines that they counter sue for.

This can run into hundreds of thousands of pounds very quickly, so while it is a noble idea, not many could ever hope to do it.

I'm just offering some experience to temper the fine sentiments you voice here.

I would see any other attempts at resolution as being nothing more than formalities and hoops that one would have to go through in the corrupt legal process that sides with abusive employers - where there are important principles at stake, these must be heard openly in a court of law, before a judge and/or jury - personally, depending on the issues involved, I would refuse all offers of out of court settlement and proceed direct to court hearing and would relentlessly pursue it all the way to the highest courts possible, if I considered that the principles involved were sufficiently and fundamentally serious 

IrishInManchesterUK said:

I would get legal advice straight away, even involving the police if needs be

You could go down this route but from discussions with employment lawyers in the past (yes I have had big payouts from abusive employers) then they will most likely advise that you need to be seen as being reasonable in your attempts to sort the situation out even if the other side is being an ass.

Without this it will not have a chance should it go to any kind of court case - the employee will be seen as unreasonable and not trying to find a solution to what could, theoretically, be a communication issue.

I'm not offering advice, just relaying what advice was given to me by a specialist solicitor and which made the employer offer to buy me out rather than face a court case they would probably lose.

At this stage of my life, I personally have zero tolerance for increasingly abusive employers in this day and age and this manager was clearly gaslighting and they were the ones who were abusive in this case - I would not even bother going to trade unions and I would get legal advice straight away, even involving the police if needs be - getting some kind of written evidence of the power cut in the general area from an official body would be helpful and taking this issue directly to head office via your Solictors or barristers would be a good move 

It seems as if any attempt to complain or put your point of view across is seen as abusive, I feel like telling them, 'no this isn't me being abusive, if I was being abusive nobody would be in any doubt about it'.

It may have been miscommunication as Iain says, but it might not be. Maybe what your manager suggested would of been a better way of phrasing it, but you were obviously in a very stressful situation and some leeway should be given for that, storms can be really scary, especially when the electric goes off.

I often wonder if when ASC people complain or ask for something, those, like your manager see a way of trying to reframe your words to make what you're saying less important, especially when you think of NT people seem to be able to get away with saying?

I've always tried to be placatory in these situations until the resentment builds up to the point where I lose my interest completely and leave.

MY daughter OTOH would HAVE your line managers ass in a sling for this latest abuse.

And it seems to work for her better than "being nice about things" ever did for me.   

squishylea said:

Today (Wednesday) I was in a meeting with my line manager and she said that my response to her email was incredibly combative and she felt attacked

I suspect there has been a communication mismatch here, although possibly not between you and your manager but between her and HR.

If their policy states they pay in the event of such storm related issues then it is probably because your line manager reported you as absent without the mitigating circumstances you called in with.

This also explains why your manager is saying you ae the problem - they are trying to cover for their own mistake and doing a poor job at it.

It was all cleared up pretty quickly so no harm was done and if you want to try to rebuild that relationship with your manager then ask if you can book in a review of it to find out how you can prevent such comminication issues again in future.

In some ways it helps to kind of take the blame for their being a general issue and ask how can I communicate in a way that gets everyone informed with the appropriate info in future. It should give your boss a polite way to dodge what is apparently an embarrassing mess up from them and to offer sagely advice to make them feel important.

It may even turn out that it was your tone that makes you apprear combative, or the lack of saying "sorry" for being an invonvenience. Maybe your boss is having their own crisis and this was just an inconvenience that made their life even more difficult - sometimes giving that chance to get it out in the open helps.

It is a form of headology as you are letting someone off the hook to improve your relationship for the future when they are probably the villan of the story.

That would by my approach anyway.

I think we should be honest with each other at work.

Drift Boss

When I have pointed out something to my manager I have been met with 'we have really supported you' and put in a way to make me feel grateful. In fact my union has said in a number of meetings about adjustments is that we are not talking about the past help, which we appreciate but this is now.