Possible PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance) ?

Another point, it’s like by reframing the demand about washing the dishes you now have a logical reason for doing the task in the first place and therefore this signals safety for your nervous system.

Thanks for providing such great insight into your PDA experience!

Autisician said:

Before I knew properly what PDA is, I thought I just had typical autistic intertia, executive function issues and hypersensitivity (physical and emotional)

I completely understand why, after all it almost presents like that to an observer who knows nothing about PDA autistics. Obviously your threat response is much more instinctive and pervasive (hence the name pervasive drive for autonomy).

Another key point about PDA experience is often the inability to even do things that you want to do, as Kristy Forbes describes in her YouTube channel this is often due to the fact that the nervous system is constantly trying to maintain a sense of equilibrium and therefore engaging in any interests for example which could lead to heightened emotions and therefore trigger a threat response.

This aspect of the PDA experience conflicts other autistic profiles. We share interest based nervous systems but for autistics like me (not PDA) it’s very easy to engage in interests. Does this resonate with you?

Autisician said:

Anything I feel I'm being herded into, made to do, expected to do etc. Fits. I think I can attribute a lot to it.

This is very interesting and I heavily relate to it! I am definitely a non conformist and I think being autistic allows us to question the status quo which can ultimately lead to positive change. You seem very much like an individualist.

Autisician said:

For example if the wife says "can you do the dishes while I'm out?" Instinct is to be angry at her demand and not do it, (which I always felt was an odd response given she asked nicely and I'm not a horrible person). If I replay it to myself as "I might be able to do those dishes while she's out and that would make her day a little less busy"  I seem to then be able to get on with ok, as I like to think I'm being helpful and it was "my idea" so I have the autonomy back. 

This is a great example and shows how important phrasing is in relation to demands and maintaining equilibrium in the nervous system. I completely understand how reframing the demand helps.

What is worse than not being able to look yourself in the eye? A job is a job, important yes, but it's not that important.

A coach that teaches you useful stuff that you both need and want to learn is totally different to someone who hassles you.

I'm not self sabotaging, I do not have a crappy made in China compass, I have a real one that works, it may not be perfect, but it's served me well over the years

I might not be a rich or successful person in the ways the world tends to see it, but I'd far rather be a principled person than either of the above, of course being all of them would be best, lol. But often not possible.

TheCatWoman said:

That's another thing, coach's WTF? People who get paid to hassle you into doing things you don't want to,

A coach is "someone who instructs or trains":

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coach

If you don't want to do it, don't hire a coach. The context of my reply was that you would be the one wanting to learn. If you are happy with letting yourself self-sabotage because of your made-in-China compass then that if fine, but for those who want to do better, it is a good option.

Life Coaches are a modern pox on the gullable. Coaches who teach you a practical skill are really worthwhile in my opinion.

TheCatWoman said:

If you have a principle then it is a thing you stand on like the captain on the deck of a sinking ship. I cannot just switch it off, it's put me in some very uncomfortable positions, some where I've felt physically under threat, but I still can't give in

You understand the harm this can do to someone with a career in front of them - if they can learn to deal with it an ignore it when they need to then it can save them from losing a job or worse.

I think I prefer Tom Waites Gotten Me a Chocolate Jesus, myself.

I'm the same, if I'm told to believe I'm less likely to. It would feel like there must be something wrong if they had to tell me to agree.

I need to believe something is the right thing to do , from what I see and think of it myself, otherwise it gets stuck in my throat like your oath example would.

Life Coaches, yeah what's that all about? Can't imagine being that convinced of something that I'd go and force it on others and expect to get paid! Reminds me of the song "personal jesus" a bit.

If anyone says to me that I have to believe for something to work then its an immediate red flag that the person telling me to believe is somekind of con artist.

My moral compass is a bit wonky, in some ways it's like Pirates of the Carribean's Capt Jack Sparrow's, compass that points at whatever he wants and in other's it's very strong and there are things I WILL NOT do! It dosen't matter if I'm getting paid for it, it doesn't matter if I'm punished in some way, I will still not do it. If you have a principle then it is a thing you stand on like the captain on the deck of a sinking ship. I cannot just switch it off, it's put me in some very uncomfortable positions, some where I've felt physically under threat, but I still can't give in, its not in me to do so, it's like I could never take an oath on the bible or to the monarch, the words would just stick in my throat, I think I'd feel ill if I said them under duress. I wouldn't be able to look myself in the eye and surely at the end of the day thats one of the most important things in life, self respect? How could anyone believe that after all that duress and distress and being hassled by a coach that my conversion was genuine?

That's another thing, coach's WTF? People who get paid to hassle you into doing things you don't want to, it might be that I have such a negative veiw of them because my ex husband wanted to retrain as a life coach, which I found both disturbing and hilarious in equal measure.

I guess reading this back I've probably got that other thing they lable naughty people as.

As I understand what you are saying, it is something which is innate to one's being. I think I was trying to say, in my reductionist way of communicating the soup that inhabits my head. ..telling yourself something as a way to mitigate /override the demand, doesn't work. Or from my experience I do it anyway to keep the peace, internalise it, but then this is not avoiding it. I understand a bit more, I think, the nature of what are simply "demsnds" and something which is more .....problematic. I am also aware, it often isn't as simple as "someone in authority has told me to do something and i have a problem with that", because quite often, it is demands on the self from the self. 

I'm not so sure that a pathology can be so easily rationalised and/or internalised.  I think it can be hidden and/or obfuscated if one has the skills you mention.....but at it's heart, it's as strong as a devotee to their faith of choice, or as "unhelpful" as an addict's connection to their addiction.  It is profound and embedded.  It is not "reason" based.

Totally agree, I find it very hard to, but have to go along with some things for these very reasons.

I find that a lot of things are driven by people's ego, politics and empire building, which goes against my moral compass. There's so much illogical waste. People get on for what they're perceived to have done not actually done, usually by riding on the backs of those who work hard. It feels like the majority find that normal and easy to go along with, while I see it for what it is and don't want to endorse it.

As you say to some extent that's how the works works so we have to fit in with it, but as it's not natural for us it's another instance of masking to get through.

It's so similar to school, which was one of the toughest times for me, I hated every minute of it.

I agree with the majority of what you say but I think depending on ones personality and, actually having a good level of social awareness, a lot of it can be internalised. Switching to the "at least I'm getting paid to do this stuff" is sometimes a bit like masking within masking. Or masking from yourself. 

Autisician said:

I'm not great with just being told, I have to "believe" to do things

This one is a real job killer.

I get where it comes from - probably your moral compass that needs things to align with what you think is right or the correct way to do things.

Unfortunately we are in a hierarchy where we do what we are told and not doing it because we think it isn't right will end up getting you fired after a while.

It really helps to work with a coach to learn how to pass your concerns back to your manager in a timely way and be willing to accept their decision.

Sometimes it sucks but without this system the management no longer trust you to do your job and will find ways to make you leave  - and quite rightly so.

It takes a lot of work to suck it up and just accept that you can't do anything about it but finding a way to disconnect from the decision (ie it's only a job) and get on with the task makes surviving in the workplace much easier.

If the thing you are asked to do is illegal then you have grounds to refuse but if it is down to it being a poor choice, inefficient or just against your personal codes then switch off the "give a fug" setting and think "at least I'm getting paid to do this stuff".

Workplaces - the biggest risk to mental health for autists since school!

Autisician said:

things I need to do at work that I don't feel bought into (I'm not great with just being told, I have to "believe" to do things) 

I found this comment extremely interesting

Thank you for sharing your experience. We have often wondered if our son's profile is towards PDA. We have learnt rather than to ask him to do something to hint or mention something, as this then gives him opportunity to make the decision himself.

You write about PDA better than anyone else I have read on these pages.  You really do seem to have a handle on / understanding of it.....in a very resonant way.

Before I knew properly what PDA is, I thought I just had typical autistic intertia, executive function issues and hypersensitivity (physical and emotional)

Now I've been able to look into it more and reflect on it, It's definitely becoming clearer now that a lot of things are PDA driven.

Even things like going to sleep at night, I fight against and sit watching rubbish on TV, especially if it wasn't my choice to call it a night and go up to bed. What I eat (or don't) during the day, especially if someone has said I should. Then there's tasks I have in my head that I don't do even when I have time during the day. Anything I feel I'm being herded into, made to do, expected to do etc. Fits. I think I can attribute a lot to it.

I find if I can try and hold off the initial reaction and try and adjust what I'm thinking it helps. Changing the context works for me.

For example if the wife says "can you do the dishes while I'm out?" Instinct is to be angry at her demand and not do it, (which I always felt was an odd response given she asked nicely and I'm not a horrible person). If I replay it to myself as "I might be able to do those dishes while she's out and that would make her day a little less busy"  I seem to then be able to get on with ok, as I like to think I'm being helpful and it was "my idea" so I have the autonomy back. 

Hardest part is overuling the instinctive reaction, sometimes I have to just wait and then think about doing something after it subsided and I can think more objectively about it.

Also the instinctive reaction assigns blame, It will blame the person nearest to the situation for it, when it's the demand, not the person that's the issue. A bit like when someone changes plans last minute, I used to blame them, or the plan itself, rather than just being aware that I was triggered by "the change".

As you say it's easier as an adult, mainly being more mature and aware of myself, as a kid I wasn't so much. I always (and still sometimes do) felt like it's a rebellious streek in me, like a petulant child, but now I know it's part of my ASC.

I completely understand your comment below, after all it's a threat response.

Autisician said:

Demand can come in many forms and my reaction to it can be almost allergic, like I'm startled by some things and fight or flight (or freeze) can kick in.

Autisician said:

It's taken a while  to figure out what that really means, there's so many things that I do which are PDA driven but I wasn't aware. I used to just think it manifests as procrastination , but it's so much more than that. 

I understand why your response to a demand may seem like executive functioning differences such as procrastination or inertia as you say, however it is obviously much primitive than that.

Autisician said:

These range from invites to social events, people popping up with a message saying "got a min to talk?" , things I need to do at work that I don't feel bought into (I'm not great with just being told, I have to "believe" to do things) 

You mention you need to believe in order to do things, this makes lots of sense as it is very common for many of us autistics (including myself) and particularly PDAer's to need to be intrinsically motivated in order to do anything. I for example always need to know that there is a logical reason for doing something, and I think it's partly due to being monotropic as my attention is so focussed that I don't have extra attention tunnels to spread elsewhere.

On the surface level, it's almost like your threat response allows for more processing time for these tasks, however i am obviously aware that it's the demand itself that triggers the loss of autonomy and not the actual nature of the task. 

As an adult I would hope you have more autonomy over your life and can set boundaries for demands that are triggering your nervous system.

Autisician said:

Demand can come in many forms and my reaction to it can be almost allergic, like I'm startled by some things and fight or flight (or freeze) can kick in.

Yes I completely understand that, it’s a threat response.

Autisician said:

It's taken a while  to figure out what that really means, there's so many things that I do which are PDA driven but I wasn't aware. I used to just think it manifests as procrastination , but it's so much more than that. 

I understand that as to some extent the PDA threat response can present as inertia or as procrastination as you say but obviously it’s distinct from those executive function differences and instead very primitive.

Autisician said:

These range from invites to social events, people popping up with a message saying "got a min to talk?" , things I need to do at work that I don't feel bought into (I'm not great with just being told, I have to "believe" to do things) 

It’s almost like the PDA threat response can give you more processing time for such tasks, albeit it’s the demand (and consequent loss of autonomy) that triggers the threat response in the first place. You mention you need to believe in order to do things, many of us autistics including myself (particularly PDAers) need to be intrinsically motivated in order to be able to do anything. 

I suppose as an adult you can have more autonomy over what you do and how you live your life, so hopefully this means you can live a low demand lifestyle.

I recognise some of those traits in myself, but are they there because of growing up in a very controlling environment or would I have had them anyway?

My diagnosis report states the profile type as PDA.

It's taken a while  to figure out what that really means, there's so many things that I do which are PDA driven but I wasn't aware. I used to just think it manifests as procrastination , but it's so much more than that. 

Demand can come in many forms and my reaction to it can be almost allergic, like I'm startled by some things and fight or flight (or freeze) can kick in.

These range from invites to social events, people popping up with a message saying "got a min to talk?" , things I need to do at work that I don't feel bought into (I'm not great with just being told, I have to "believe" to do things) 

It's all good fun!