Morality Issue

Nothing is ever created in a vacuum, the external always impacts it. That awareness of the external influences flavours it all with many different nuances, and for me, to ignore those makes no sense. I used to teach English and it was just as important to talk about what society was like at the time and how that influenced the work we were study, as the work itself.

Then we fundamentally disagree. I have a non-binary child, for whom the Harry Potter books, that they loved, are now ruined. Though I love my child, it has not had the same effect on me, I can separate the art from its originator. I'm rather glad that I can.

I'd disagree. My enjoyment of something is definitely impacted by my feelings on the artist. I won't knowingly choose to watch or listen to something that involves someone I find morally reprehensible. Even if it was something I enjoyed before. I won't watch anything with Kevin Spacey in for example, or purchase anything Harry Potter related because Rowling is a TERF.

I think the temporal dimension is immaterial. I revere Bob Dylan as an artist, but I do not think that he is particularly wonderful as a human being. He does not have to be for his work to have relevance or for me to enjoy it. No one is responsible for the moral failings of another. No one need feel any moral qualms about enjoying the artistic work of a morally reprehensible artist. Gary Glitter produced some quite catchy pop records, they remained catchy even after his moral depravity became public.

I think for me it's less of an issue if it's a legacy that would be damaged, than if it were someone who is still alive. Although saying that, I won't be listening to lostprophets whether that pond scum is alive or dead. So maybe the modernity of it matters as well.

I would argue they still are reaping those benefits in a way. Eric Gill might be in the ground but if you'd told him that years after his death people were still heaping praise on his works, I'm sure he'd have been pretty pleased by the idea. It's not like these people have no concept of a legacy that will endure. That's why people like Colston were so keen to slap their name on things that would pay them tribute hundreds of years later

I think the key word there is "was". Most of the people you mention are not currently alive and reaping the benefits of their popularity. There's a difference between consuming art from a past age where things might have been viewed differently, and knowingly consuming art from someone current who has done something illegal/immoral by current standards. It's the difference between Wagner and his antisemitism, and Gary Glitter and his child pornography.

I think that art is fundamentally independent of the morality of the artist. Caravaggio was a murderer, Picasso treated women abominably, Yukio Mishima was a Fascist who tried to engineer a right wing coup against the Japanese government, Richard Wagner was a racist, however, I can enjoy the art that these people created. Enjoying any artform is not an endorsement of the morals of its creators, the two are separate.

So in your hypothetical if you absolutely know the baker is a rapist, you're not any less likely to buy your bread there than at a bakery where no sex offenders are employed?

And if the accusation was against the sound or lighting person, they would have been replaced immediately. Same with literally anyone else involved who wasn't completely irreplaceable. If the driver of the 376 bus was publicly accused of something like this, he would be suspended pretty quickly because thankfully most people are less willing to buy their sausages from the voyeur and their fruit from the child molester than you seem to be. 

When you listen to Rammstein right now (or better, watch some of their live stuff), how do you feel?

If you're fine with it and you can just enjoy the music, then that's how you are so what other people say you should do maybe doesn't matter that much.

Personally, listening to music by scumbags massively detracts from it for me. I can't listen to The Smiths or Brand New or Ryan Adams (or on a more extreme end, lostprophets) without the thought in my head of what they did, and that ruins the music for me.

Some people's brains don't work that way and I'm not passing judgment on you for still enjoying Rammstein any more than I would if you eat meat or whatever.

If you don't mind me asking, where do you get you info if not social media.  Main stream media lie constantly and while it takes time to find good sources on social media, they do exist.  Colonel Kurtz is one of the good sources but she does deal with some difficult subjects.

Good point.  I do tend to hone in on my objective which is just how I plan trips.  Outside of that 1 thing everything else is a surplus. I never saw much of Jamaica as I was just visiting my mum and never planned anything around that and it took all my energy as it was so stressful. I'll try looking up some other things. 

Currently it seems that the entire focus of your trip is the concert. It's our autistic tendency to hyper-focus. That's why the decision seems overwhelming. 

Maybe you could widen the focus by researching what else there is to see and do in Berlin that may interest you. It will at least take your mind off the issues surrounding the band for a while.

If you can start planning other things to do during your trip the concert itself will become a smaller part of it, which should hopefully make the decision less overwhelming.

Thanks Touay. I started watching a few videos about this but stopped as all the noise around this was making me feel so much worse, what ever the truth is.  I don't really use social media for things like that so I'm nicely tucked away under an objective blanket. But when all this kicked off I raised my head and it was non stop shouting so I retreated again. I look up every now and again though.  Think I did see part of colonel kurt's video but I just had to stop.

You make some very good points here Peter! I'll try and keep this in mind.  I think part of me does see it as just a service.

Re the accusations ... there is a good youtube channel that has gone into all this... look up colonel kurtz.

I can only speak for myself but personally I'd just go. You don't worry do you, if the chair you buy comes from wood sourced unethically? Or if the chairman of your local supermarket is a criminal? If you refused to bank with unethical banks you'd have to just keep your money under your mattress. Ever buy a loaf of bread? Do you know the farmer wasn't a rapist? What about the baker, or the lorry driver or the shelf stacker? Would you refuse to buy the bread if you knew? Would it be better if it was the lighting director or sound guy who was accused of rape instead of the lead singer? Should it make a difference? The concert is a service. You should be no more worried about the criminality of the singer than the bus driver that takes you there.

Enjoy Berlin.

I knew about the Sex Offences Charge, against the Rammstein frontman. To be honest, I don't know who to believe. One mob thinks he's guilty as sin, while another group believe she's lying her Ar$e off. Either way, justice suffers.

So many kids, and young men/women, are directionless. We're in the era of dependency. Mainly caused by poor lifestyle choices. Grief is now used as a weapon.

I'm grateful for my new kitty. She'll teach me responsibility. I spent far too long of my life riding pillion.

Enjoy the Thai Boxing.