Morality Issue

agreed and I am willing to condemn all those who perpetrate SA ... but the social punishment I am being subject to because "you are not allowed to talk about THOSE perpetrators of SA" is why that SA has continued to this day.

I have said nothing that is in any way shape or form racist.  That you reflexively make such false accusations is to your shame.  I am well aware that these sorts of false allegations, the use of social coercion as a means of control is very effective, so effective in fact, that it has prevented the problem of muslim grape gangs from being dealt with for more than 40 years.  

I raised the point as one example.  that I have been jumped of 'you cant talk about that because they are muslim perpetrators' is REAL racism from you with real consequences.

I believe in hunting down and prosecuting any and all SA, no matter who is doing it, not matter their race ... that is what NOT BEING RACIST looks like. that you are ACTIVELY trying to silence anyone raising the problem of a certain group that being MASSIVELY over-represented in SA, because you want to hold that racial group to a different standard than others is REAL racism ... yes YOU are the racist and you racism is how this problem remains unsolved and why children continue to suffer.

I understand that you have convinced yourself that you are in the right, but your position is derived from nothing more than the fear that the same false allegations of racism will be use against you ... so you go along with it and actively support it.  Sad.

The majority of child sexual abuse takes place within the homes of victims - up to two thirds.  The largest proportion of abusers are family members, or people in close contact with the victims, the next largest group are teachers, sports coaches, religious leaders and others in positions of authority over children. The numbers of children abused by organised gangs is obviously in a distinct minority. While organised gangs need to be investigated and prosecuted, their existence should not take attention away from where, how and by whom the majority of abuse takes place.

You are literally parroting racist rhetoric used by the likes of Braverman et al. Do you ever wonder why these types of people have very little to say when it's a white British group abusing children? Sexual abuse is a serious matter, and it's not helping the matter when one group of people misrepresent the truth to fan the flames of hatred against a particular minority group. 

I'll downvote racism any time I see it, and you're bringing to the table a point of view overwhelmingly favoured by racists. 

I get that and I have no doubt that it happened, there's enough evidence to show that, I've not said anything here to downplay the issue.

My issue here is that it's not relevant to what we're talking about so it seemed an odd choice of example to use in this instance. What happened with me, and also the allegations against the lead singer, have nothing to do with British Pakistani grooming gangs of vulnerable young girls.

exactly ... and saying we should use it as an example is a mechanism for the suppression of the issue.

I can see we can't have a rational discussion on this topic so I'm going to finish it here. You are now openly insulting me and accusing me of supporting something that I have in no way backed by anything I have said here, or ever in fact. Any case of grooming, sexual assault, gangs, and drugging is a very serious issue that I have in no way made light of during this thread today, and at any other time. My comments on the matter today have been to clarify that whilst grooming gangs are a very serious matter, they are not the most common causes of sexual assault in this country, and the issue does not relate directly to the discussions taking place here.

You obviously feel very strongly about this but the way you are going about talking about it massively detracts from what is a very serious issue.

I think the distinction is not necessarily the demographics of the offenders but rather that there’s evidence in a specific number of cases The demographics of the offenders was seen as a reason not to pursue investigations.

that it was seen as politically incorrect to pursue investigations of behaviour that some people would claim rightly or wrongly was A product of a particular culture.

so really I think it’s a culture of political correctness that is most damningly indicted by the scandals.

your reaction is exactly why it needs to be raised OVER and OVER and OVER until the problem is dealt with.  That your reply is in effect, "yes, you can talk about the problem of abuse, but if you openly discuss that issue, I will criticism you and down-vote you posts."

Again .. this is why these grapes kept happening for the past 40 years. people were told not to talk about it for fear of being falsely accused of prejudice. That you and tris would down-vote any mention of the issue is EXACTLY what is required to ensure the problem is NEVER solved.

In down-voting my posts, you are ACTIVELY supporting the suppression of the issue and therefore actively supporting the continuation of that abuse by trying to keep it hidden.  this is disgusting.

At no point did I downplay the abuse caused by grooming gangs, it is obviously a serious matter. I live in a multiethnic city and have worked in education for years, particularly with vulnerable young people, I can safely say that I've undergone more training on grooming and gangs than most people have. What I did was contest the scale of the issue, as it seemed an odd choice on your part to use that as an example in a discussion on the drugging and sexual assault of adult women.

A more relevant point would have been to talk about how often sexual assaults are underreported and investigated, let alone brought to sentencing, with current figures as opposed to the situation 20 years ago.

There was no need to bring in an example specifically targeted at race since that had no bearing on the discussion, that's just not logical.

i only raised the issue as an example .. i did not post a full breakdown of all issues in the country ... just one example of horrific abuse that has continued for years as a means of saying it is unlikely the issue you had is being deal with any better than when it happened to you.

that you chose to down-play that horrific abuse and continue to do so is again, exactly how the police justify doing nothing about people putting drugs in womens drinks.   

Perhaps instead of trying to downplay abuse because it is politically inconvenient for you, you simply say ... we should stop all this abuse.

You downplay pakistani grape gangs, someone else downplays drugging women, someone else downplays child trafficking ... and nothing gets down about any of it .... why is your reaction to downplay abuse instead of simply condemning it!?

So the difference between what I posted and what you posted is that mine were verifiable statistics, and your's are talk pieces from a right-wing politician in the Express Tribune and the Sun, which I shouldn't need to clarify as to why those are unreliable news sources.

Yes, there are grooming gangs, yes, the most PUBLICISED cases involve British Pakistani men, but no, grooming gangs don't account for the majority is sexual assaults in this country.

So let's stop with the whataboutism.

And your answer is exactly how police justify ignoring the issue you had ... just pretend it is not happening and selectively choose your statistics to avoid having to highlighting the problem because it is politically inconvenient. .. and so the grapes of children continued for 40 years.

Most paedophiles in UK are of Pakistani origin, says Sajid Javid
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1875140/pedophiles-uk-pakistani-origin-says-uk-home-secretary

British-Pakistani researchers say 84 per cent of grooming gang members targeting young girls are Asian
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5109188/grooming-gangs-britain-pakistan-girls-sexual-abuse/

But we should just ignore that ... because it is 'right wing'!  

I think that specifically mentioning groups of Pakistani origin is parroting a right-wing talking piece and is detrimental to the overall discussion of sexual assaults in this country.

It ignores data released by the Home Office showing that shows that 84 per cent of child sex offenders are white British, but chooses to focus on those who are not.

In its 2020 report, the Home Office found that, while there had been several high-profile grooming and child sexual exploitation cases in Rotherham, Rochdale and Telford involving men of Pakistani ethnicity, “links between ethnicity and this form of offending” could not be proven.

It claimed that there were “some studies suggest an over-representation of black and Asian offenders relative to the demographics of national populations”, but it was not possible “to conclude that this is representative of all group-based child sexual exploitation offending”.

A previous research on the same in 2015 had found that of 1,231 perpetrators of group and gang-based child sexual exploitation, 42 per cent were White, 14 per cent were Asian or Asian British and 17 per cent were Black.

Absolutely. If I'd been capable at the time I would have pushed it but as it was I wasn't in any state to do that and my friend was more concerned with my wellbeing. It was nearly 20 years ago so I can only hope that they're better at dealing with this sort of thing now.

Yeah it’s inexcusable laziness not to give you blood tests and get the CCTV from the bar if there  was any. Still might have gone nowhere but they ought to do the basics at least.

Innocent until proven guilty is indeed the maxim, however it appears to have been an open secret in the industry for years. Interesting article in the Guardian on it if you're interested:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/15/rammstein-sexual-assault-allegations-till-lindemann-berlin-investigated

I'm glad that it's being investigated by the police in Germany, but it's an all too familiar stance from the authorities in Vilnius. Not a concert, but I've been drugged in a bar, ended up in hospital thanks to my friend knowing that something was wrong rather than leaving me with the guy I was talking to, and the police did nothing. Said it was alcohol when I'd only had one drink, and didn't investigate. From friends' experiences the same frequently happens when it's sexual assault. So forgive me for having a personal opinion on this, it hits too closely.

Are yes Johnny Depp, The antidote to the maxim believe all women. Because of course all women includes Amber Heard and nobody believes her anymore.

but you see it with the hew Edwards thing you see it with other people who have high profile. An accusation is made then inevitably more accusations will be made because they’re like broken windows. As soon as the house has one everyone is going to start chucking rocks through all the others. And everyone saying oh with all these accusations they must be a bad one. And then the police either don’t prosecute or it goes to trial and there’s no conviction. Well it’s too late because there’s already been a pile on and nobody really cares about the outcome of the formal justice process.

my maximum is believe nobody, trust the evidence. And since they generally never let the general public see the evidence the general public isn’t in a position to come to a conclusion most of the time.

indeed. just look at how Johnny Depp was treated. convicted in the press and in public, when he was in fact the victim of domestic abuse.