Published on 12, July, 2020
I have huge problems taking holiday, and previously only travelled to see my mother who I didn't get on with and it was always very traumatic. I stopped visiting her years ago and have a rue that l my holidays had to be productive and learning to justify the amount of anxiety preparing for them brings out. So it's been Thai boxing camp and Berlin as I was learning German. I haven't been away for almost 8 years. This was all before I even though I might be aspie. Just the preparing, arranging a sitter for my cats, getting to the airport on time and not missing the flight makes me tense and the whole thing not worth it.
I purchased tickets to see Rammstein in Berlin on Saturday. I bought the tickets last year as I really like their music and I haven't been away for a very long time and I though I would treat myself to a nice ticket and a trip as I though since I've been learning for a while and been hyperfixated on the band plus I could practice my German would be a good way to start again. Now, if you've read anything about Rammstein you'll know what a disaster this has turned out to be! The sex offence charges against the lead singer, the protest plant for this weekend in Berlin etc. I haven't been able to do much for the last week. I'm really conflicted but because reading all the facts it looks like the singer is guilty as charged. But my ticket was really expensive, and I worked so hard preparing everything and then there's the ticket price and obviously part of me feels duty bound to get this done. I can't help it! I don't know how to feel about any of this but I'm feeling increasingly, dangerously, upset. I have people telling me I shouldn't go, people telling me I should go. I'm still doing the flight part but I haven't thought past that point. It's weird, but it doesn't feel like it's moral decision. Maybe because I was more into the music than the individuals? Maybe I'm horrible and selfish, and a bad person who only cares about her tasks. Why am I still going? Why do I still want to? Just thinking about this is making me want to just run somewhere else and hide and never come back (even though I can't. cats.) I Don't see the band as people maybe, just sounds? I'm not sure.
I think I jut need a place to get this off my chest. I don't expect to hear nice things. or anything at all. Seeing bands live was the only place Ii felt I could relax. Weird isn't it. I can't do parties or dinners. But just drowning in a sea of people anonymously listing to music you like makes me relax. Not sue I can do that again though as people will always just be people.
I'd like to remind a few people here about the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" which some time ago replaced "trial by mob".
Setting aside the O/P's questionable taste in music (that's an attempt to lighten the mood) which my G/F shares, I'd do the trip, enjoy the music and wait for a verdict...
The good news, is that I've found when I've realised that a particular activity that I found rewarding was morally bankrupt, there's always an alternative appears..
And kudos for caring about your cats to the extent you feel they anchor you, as well as having actual moral concerns.
Innocent until proven guilty is indeed the maxim, however it appears to have been an open secret in the industry for years. Interesting article in the Guardian on it if you're interested:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/15/rammstein-sexual-assault-allegations-till-lindemann-berlin-investigated
I'm glad that it's being investigated by the police in Germany, but it's an all too familiar stance from the authorities in Vilnius. Not a concert, but I've been drugged in a bar, ended up in hospital thanks to my friend knowing that something was wrong rather than leaving me with the guy I was talking to, and the police did nothing. Said it was alcohol when I'd only had one drink, and didn't investigate. From friends' experiences the same frequently happens when it's sexual assault. So forgive me for having a personal opinion on this, it hits too closely.
Yeah it’s inexcusable laziness not to give you blood tests and get the CCTV from the bar if there was any. Still might have gone nowhere but they ought to do the basics at least.
It's ironic but statistically your child is far safer hanging out with a dodgy looking guy in a trench coat than their uncle / aunt.
Touay said:what fcuking 'narrative' i gave ONE EXAMPLE ..... ONE EXAMPLE ... ffs. that you went off because you have a desire to cover up the crimes of one racial group is where we went off the rails.
That is completely unnecessary.
At no point did BeckyThump evidence any desire of that sort, and why swear?
You just have a viewpoint, it's not a fact, it's a viewpoint, so it would be appreciated if you could occasionally realise that and not personally attack others (as you have me before) because someone challenges you.
A down vote is a way of signifying disagreement with a comment, not that the comment shouldn't be made. It's a thumbs up or thumbs down option. I disagree with the relevance of your comment so you got a down vote, I also said that the comment wasn't relevant to the discussion by posting statistics showing it's not the most prevalent issue concerning sexual assaults.
And whilst you're not obligated to discuss every single situation of a thing as you say, you absolutely picked one that is a very odd choice considering the discussion. You brought race into it, no one else had mentioned it at that point because it's not relevant here.
And again, stop accusing me of trying to cover up an issue due to race. I have done no such thing. Saying it isn't relevant to this discussion isn't the same as saying it's not relevant to any discussion.
In fact, go ahead and start a thread on it and I'll happily talk about it there with you, and we can leave this thread for a discussion on this issues surrounding the lead singer of Rammstein and the moral appropriateness of still attending the concert, or not.
BeckyThump said:No one has said you're not allowed to talk about it, stop putting words in my mouth.
down-voting the post, as you did, is a signify of disapproval for me posting about it. that is to say ... don't post about this.
without any need to, you started posting statistics intended to downplay the issue ...
All you needed to say was ... "I don't think that is the biggest issue when it come to SA, but I take your point", but you didn't say that. I am being falsely accused of being racist by an actual racist when I think people, regardless of race, should be condemned and prosecuted for SA when she thinks if you are a certain racial group, we should cover up those crimes ... treating people differently based on race ... that is racism.
BeckyThump said:Where is your indignation for all the women that aren't believed?
I gave ONE EXAMPLE... I am not required to cite every single situation of a thing and express my opinion of every single example when giving one example. to suggest otherwise is disingenuous at best. and besides, I have REPEATEDLY condemned all SA in this thread ... all includes EVERYTHING.
BeckyThump said:All of these are a far bigger issue than grooming gangs but you're not getting wound up about that because it doesn't fit with your narrative.
what fcuking 'narrative' i gave ONE EXAMPLE ..... ONE EXAMPLE ... ffs. that you went off because you have a desire to cover up the crimes of one racial group is where we went off the rails.
No one has said you're not allowed to talk about it, stop putting words in my mouth.
No one here is saying that grooming gangs are not an issue, no one here is saying they shouldn't be investigated due to the race of the perpetrators, and no one here is saying that any coverups shouldn't be investigated. You are quite literally making up reasons to feel persecuted.
I merely said it's not relevant to talk about it here because the issue we're talking about isn't race related. There are far more pertinent issues to talk about with relation to the topic of lack of action on sexual assaults without bringing race into it, namely the lack of belief in victims reporting it.
Where is your indignation for all the women that aren't believed? For the ones mocked and insulted for making accusations against men with more power and standing than them? For the ones disowned by their families for being perceived as "asking for it"? For being told that they brought it on themselves by the way they dress, or the places they go?
All of these are a far bigger issue than grooming gangs but you're not getting wound up about that because it doesn't fit with your narrative.
By the way, the guy that drugged me in the bar was a young white male. Sorry it doesn't fit your profile for a despicable person.
T said:I'll downvote racism any time I see it, and you're bringing to the table a point of view overwhelmingly favoured by racists.
you mean you will falsely accuse people of racism in order to protect child grapists from public scrutiny .. classy.
You made my point better than I did, thank you.
BeckyThump said:My issue here is that it's not relevant to what we're talking about so it seemed an odd choice of example to use in this instance.
it was simply an example of a problem of SA that has not been resolved ... nothing more... that I got jumped on "you not allowed to talk about that" ... is where it went off the rails.
agreed and I am willing to condemn all those who perpetrate SA ... but the social punishment I am being subject to because "you are not allowed to talk about THOSE perpetrators of SA" is why that SA has continued to this day.
I have said nothing that is in any way shape or form racist. That you reflexively make such false accusations is to your shame. I am well aware that these sorts of false allegations, the use of social coercion as a means of control is very effective, so effective in fact, that it has prevented the problem of muslim grape gangs from being dealt with for more than 40 years.
I raised the point as one example. that I have been jumped of 'you cant talk about that because they are muslim perpetrators' is REAL racism from you with real consequences.
I believe in hunting down and prosecuting any and all SA, no matter who is doing it, not matter their race ... that is what NOT BEING RACIST looks like. that you are ACTIVELY trying to silence anyone raising the problem of a certain group that being MASSIVELY over-represented in SA, because you want to hold that racial group to a different standard than others is REAL racism ... yes YOU are the racist and you racism is how this problem remains unsolved and why children continue to suffer.
I understand that you have convinced yourself that you are in the right, but your position is derived from nothing more than the fear that the same false allegations of racism will be use against you ... so you go along with it and actively support it. Sad.
The majority of child sexual abuse takes place within the homes of victims - up to two thirds. The largest proportion of abusers are family members, or people in close contact with the victims, the next largest group are teachers, sports coaches, religious leaders and others in positions of authority over children. The numbers of children abused by organised gangs is obviously in a distinct minority. While organised gangs need to be investigated and prosecuted, their existence should not take attention away from where, how and by whom the majority of abuse takes place.
You are literally parroting racist rhetoric used by the likes of Braverman et al. Do you ever wonder why these types of people have very little to say when it's a white British group abusing children? Sexual abuse is a serious matter, and it's not helping the matter when one group of people misrepresent the truth to fan the flames of hatred against a particular minority group.
I'll downvote racism any time I see it, and you're bringing to the table a point of view overwhelmingly favoured by racists.
I get that and I have no doubt that it happened, there's enough evidence to show that, I've not said anything here to downplay the issue.
My issue here is that it's not relevant to what we're talking about so it seemed an odd choice of example to use in this instance. What happened with me, and also the allegations against the lead singer, have nothing to do with British Pakistani grooming gangs of vulnerable young girls.
exactly ... and saying we should use it as an example is a mechanism for the suppression of the issue.
I can see we can't have a rational discussion on this topic so I'm going to finish it here. You are now openly insulting me and accusing me of supporting something that I have in no way backed by anything I have said here, or ever in fact. Any case of grooming, sexual assault, gangs, and drugging is a very serious issue that I have in no way made light of during this thread today, and at any other time. My comments on the matter today have been to clarify that whilst grooming gangs are a very serious matter, they are not the most common causes of sexual assault in this country, and the issue does not relate directly to the discussions taking place here.
You obviously feel very strongly about this but the way you are going about talking about it massively detracts from what is a very serious issue.
I think the distinction is not necessarily the demographics of the offenders but rather that there’s evidence in a specific number of cases The demographics of the offenders was seen as a reason not to pursue investigations.
that it was seen as politically incorrect to pursue investigations of behaviour that some people would claim rightly or wrongly was A product of a particular culture.
so really I think it’s a culture of political correctness that is most damningly indicted by the scandals.
your reaction is exactly why it needs to be raised OVER and OVER and OVER until the problem is dealt with. That your reply is in effect, "yes, you can talk about the problem of abuse, but if you openly discuss that issue, I will criticism you and down-vote you posts."
Again .. this is why these grapes kept happening for the past 40 years. people were told not to talk about it for fear of being falsely accused of prejudice. That you and tris would down-vote any mention of the issue is EXACTLY what is required to ensure the problem is NEVER solved.
In down-voting my posts, you are ACTIVELY supporting the suppression of the issue and therefore actively supporting the continuation of that abuse by trying to keep it hidden. this is disgusting.
At no point did I downplay the abuse caused by grooming gangs, it is obviously a serious matter. I live in a multiethnic city and have worked in education for years, particularly with vulnerable young people, I can safely say that I've undergone more training on grooming and gangs than most people have. What I did was contest the scale of the issue, as it seemed an odd choice on your part to use that as an example in a discussion on the drugging and sexual assault of adult women.
A more relevant point would have been to talk about how often sexual assaults are underreported and investigated, let alone brought to sentencing, with current figures as opposed to the situation 20 years ago.
There was no need to bring in an example specifically targeted at race since that had no bearing on the discussion, that's just not logical.
i only raised the issue as an example .. i did not post a full breakdown of all issues in the country ... just one example of horrific abuse that has continued for years as a means of saying it is unlikely the issue you had is being deal with any better than when it happened to you.
that you chose to down-play that horrific abuse and continue to do so is again, exactly how the police justify doing nothing about people putting drugs in womens drinks.
Perhaps instead of trying to downplay abuse because it is politically inconvenient for you, you simply say ... we should stop all this abuse.
You downplay pakistani grape gangs, someone else downplays drugging women, someone else downplays child trafficking ... and nothing gets down about any of it .... why is your reaction to downplay abuse instead of simply condemning it!?
So the difference between what I posted and what you posted is that mine were verifiable statistics, and your's are talk pieces from a right-wing politician in the Express Tribune and the Sun, which I shouldn't need to clarify as to why those are unreliable news sources.
Yes, there are grooming gangs, yes, the most PUBLICISED cases involve British Pakistani men, but no, grooming gangs don't account for the majority is sexual assaults in this country.
So let's stop with the whataboutism.