HELP WITH PIP TRIBUNAL DECISION - NOBODY GETS IT!!!

Peter said:

Consider the typical high functioning autistic person in otherwise good health.

As at February 2023, 51.1% of applicants whose main disabling condition was "Asperger syndrome" were successful in their PIP claims, which is close to the overall average across all conditions of 52%. For "Autism", it was 72.3%.

Source: Benefits and Work

Peter said:

So if you are high functioning auristic but not socially anxtious to the point of being a shut it you've basicly got no chance of getting pip unless you have some sort of other issue going on.

Having recently completed a PIP application myself - including using specialist resources to learn more about each activity, and how autism can affect us in respect of them - I have to say that I find your assumptions and conclusions shocking (and not in a positive way).

The process led me to recognise, and to have to come to terms with, all kinds of ways in which my autism has - previously unbeknownst to me - been causing me significant issues on a daily basis. 

In an ideal world, I would have had a psychosocial needs assessment some time ago, immediately following my ASD diagnosis, but this hasn't yet happened. Instead, my PIP learning took me on what I suspect might be quite a similar journey.

I thought that I'd already audited myself pretty thoroughly in preparation for my autism assessment. But this process revealed so much more and has felt like a very dispiriting double-whammy. It included recognising a lot of prior ignorance and internalised ableism on my part, including in respect of how I've previously regarded both myself and others.

I ended up identifying various issues across many of the activities, not just the ones that I mentioned before as examples. 

In the long run, I'm sure (or hope, at least) that I'll look back on it as a positive thing to have done - and I have already made some helpful changes as a result of it. But in the short-term, there's no getting away from the fact that it's also been a very upsetting process for me (others, of course, may experience and view it differently). 

So we'll have to agree to politely disagree. In my case, very strongly.  

When you look at the criteria in the checklist it's prity clear what they care about is you being aple to interact with people to say, go out side and order at a shop or catch a bus.

www.gov.uk/.../pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria

Consider the typical high functioning autistic person in otherwise good health. He's going to score 0 on everything other than points 7 & 9, Communicating verbally and Engaging with other people face to face. You need at least 8 points to get PIP so split evenly that's 4 points each.

For 4 points in catagory 7 you'd need "support to be able to express or understand complex sentences." Unlikely for a high functioning person. For 2 points you'd have to have a hearing problem so that wouldn't apply.

So a high functioning autistic person would need to get all 8 points on point 9. For that you would have to be unable to: "engage with other people due to such engagement causing either: i. overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant; or ii. the claimant to exhibit behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person."

So if you are high functioning auristic but not socially anxtious to the point of being a shut it you've basicly got no chance of getting pip unless you have some sort of other issue going on.

So yes technically social stiuations are covered but the point weighting on it is so low it might as well not be.

Peter said:

When I think about independance I think about being able to go out and have fun on my own terms. To engage with the wider world socially or in work or lessure. PIP isn't about that.

Actually, PIP is about those things, as well as such things as being able to cook, wash, dress, etc.

“Daily living part 

You might get the daily living part of PIP if you need help with:

• preparing food
• eating and drinking
• managing your medicines or treatments
• washing and bathing
• using the toilet
• dressing and undressing
• reading
• managing your money
• socialising and being around other people
• talking, listening and understanding

Mobility part

You might get the mobility part of PIP if you need help with:

• working out a route and following it
• physically moving around
• leaving your home “

Gov - Personal Independence Payment (PIP) > What PIP is for

The corresponding “daily living activities”, for example, that are scored by the assessors include:

• Communicating verbally
• Reading and understanding signs, symbols and words
• Engaging with other people face to face

Benefits and Work - Personal Independence Payment (PIP) points system

It is possible to qualify for the daily living component of PIP (at either the standard or enhanced rate) from two or more of these categories alone. 

Keeping in mind that the diagnostic criteria for Autism Spectrum Disorder include “Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts” (DSM 5 TR), I find it very easy to see how some autistic people can and do rightly qualify for PIP - depending on the extent of their difficulties in these, and/or potentially also in other, areas of the daily living or mobility parts. 

I mean someone was payed to chop that veg for you, to grate the chease for you, even if it was someone operating a machine in a factory. The taxi driver is paid to drive you about. Their time is being 'paid for.' I think you thought I meant it was just about paying for profesional carers but that wasn't what I meant. My point is pip is assesed based on whether a person can feed and cloath themselves, go down to the shop etc. Not based on their social / work life etc.

When I think about independance I think about being able to go out and have fun on my own terms. To engage with the wider world socially or in work or lessure. PIP isn't about that. It's about the extra cost of staying alive and not living in squaler if you are disabeled.

Could you please  help me as my son was denied pip now appealing.  He is 16 and autism  and suffers from anxiety.struggling at college. He is soo exhausted  when he comes home. Any help would be grearly appreciated

It is disgusting! We don't ask to be born. We are brought into this sick world without our permission, we have to beg for help and are made to feel bad for doing so. If they don't want to help us then they should offer us euthanasia. This is happening for people with Asperger's in the Netherlands and in Belgium. 

Please can you help me? Thanks.

I quite agree with this Peter - although not in this position, I quite agree with everything that you have said, even though I’ve not been in the position where I need PIP at my age,  but I do think that the entire system requires fundamental changes to legislation because it is utterly devoid of basic humanity and compassion - it clearly demonstrates that outdated attitudes and misconceptions about autism do need to change at a fundamental level - I have said many times on previous threads that with an elderly autistic population with many of us being diagnosed later in life, we are all going to face serious problems as we get older in the next few years - from reading through the thread I find the arrogant attitudes of DWP officials and even at tribunal level utterly repulsive, revolting and disgusting, as they clearly refuse to understand any of the issues that many autistic people face  

Did you get PIP in the end? Because I may be able to help. My DiL just had full mobility and standard daily living taken off her. She went from that to zero points and a tribunal. The document I wrote as her supporting evidence for the tribunal was so good that they called her and told her she didn’t have to go to tribunal because the supporting evidence was so good they knew they wouldn’t win. 

Unlike other responses saying “high functioning “ autism doesn’t qualify. It does. Just because you’re good at research it doesn’t mean you’re good in social situations or driving from a to b without a melt down. 

I know this is a late response, but that’s not quite true. I have an autoimmune condition as well as autism. I can no longer grate my own cheese or chop my vegetables. I have to buy grated cheese and pre cut veg. It costs more. PIP helps to cover that cost. 

Autism means I struggle to park my car when spaces are few. PIP and a blue badge mean I have easier access to parking or the ability to pay for a taxi when I know I can’t park (at the hospital for example). 

It is about independence, and the supporting of, not about paying for an actual person to care for you. 

I mean pip is completely misnamed. They used to call it disability living allowance which is closer to it. It’s for things you need to stay alive that non disabled people wouldn’t need. It’s not about independence it’s about paying for the time of the people you are dependent on just to stay alive.

it’s not really about including disabled people in society it’s about making sure their basic bodily functions are taken care of. It’s an independence payment in the same sense that universal credit is universal. That is to say not at all. Independence may just occasionally be a side effect of the payment.

Unfortunately it's a fact of life that these discretionary awards such as PIP don't go to the people who need them most, but to the people who make the best case for needing them.  Again unfortunately, people on the spectrum are often poor communicators.

The thing about the pip system is it’s built on a points system. That’s not just DWP polocy it’s actually written into the law. I did a breakdown of the system and why it was unfair months ago. I’m going to copy paste it bellow

——

Well I doubt any high functioning autistic person could claim pip unless they had other issues as well. lets run though the criteria.

1 – Preparing food

Can the person make pancakes or beans on toast. Not necessarily do they but could they if they were shown how. Would they be safe left with the contents of a fridge, knife draw and cooker. Could they crack an egg, pour in some flour and milk, mix it then tip it in a frying pan without cutting or burning themselves? would what came out be safe to eat? then they score 0 points.

2 – Taking nutrition

Can the person eat a meal with out being prompted or supervised. If they're left unattended but provided with suitable food will they eat at least once a day with out assistance? if so 0 points.

3 – Managing therapy or monitoring a health condition

Can the person take pills / injections when their doctor says they should. Do things like monitor their blood sugar, use an oxygen mask. Can they do it safely on their own without help? 0 points.

4 – Washing and bathing

Can the person use ordinary unadapted baths and showers to wash without special tools? Do they have the cognative capacity to remember bathing they should do and the energy to do it? 0 points

Thank you I'm looking in to that now

I’m sorry that you feel this way, please try to see the forest for the trees and take an objective view, the welfare state is designed to minimise the burden of the state. The only way to get through is either through their hoops or to point out legitimate admin error or exception.
It’s a bureaucratic process, a red tape operation and something that cannot be taken on a whim-and-a-prayer, so yes I do think that you should seek an advocate for this one.:)

Yes they are, I don't have anyone. Maybe I could try my local citizens advice now, I really thought that after everything they have on my background and diagnoses etc they would see how things are a struggle for me. It's very disappointing.

Sometimes I think, that people can have a hard time seeing that a disability, can be more than just a mobility issue. 
You need to have a confident advocate, to state that your psychological and neurological issues are a hinderance to your independence. Though I can appreciate that they are hard to come by..

Is it not possible to have an advocate, like a Citizens Advice Representative, join the call with you?

It's just so overwhelming. I know that some people do win this fight and I really want to continue with my appeal but I just don't know how to make them understand or take my conditions and the effect they have on my life seriously. I won't be able to eat today at all because I am so upset, my brain is scrambled, the outcome has ruined my positivity and I am back in a very anxious place that I haven't been for a while.

you can actually read that checklist here www.gov.uk/.../pip-handbook

and particularly here https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1092461/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-assessment-criteria.pdf