I like to fly under the radar wherever possible - less attention = less stress.
I value anonymity. I am debating whether to share my identity in this place with my nearest and dearest.
Do the folk from these pages share their identity here with their significant others so they can be "looked up" and their posts read?
A simple Yes or No would be gratefully received, but further reasoning would be especially welcomed.
It was the stuff about "depth manipulation" that I found objectionable.
It's underhand.
The negative stuff generally is, hence the need to also define the positive and neutral stuff so that it is not all cast as a malevolent issue and 'it' (whatever it happens to be) gets written off as just being doom weaving or paranoid conspiracy, involving 'argumentum add hominem' (arguments against people) rather than discussing the unmentioned subject in any specific manner.
Hence advertisers need to involve depth psychology in order to take advantage of providing for people's: emotional security, reassurance of worth, ego gratification, creative outlets, love objects, sense of power, roots and immortality ~ as listed by Vance ~ otherwise perfectly reasonable products do not sell as well as would be required to justify production cost and make a profit ~ sometimes just on account of being the wrong colour, shape or size, whether that be clothing, transport, accommodation or whatever else.
The project I chose to work on from The Hidden Persuaders involved page 13 of the Trouble With People Chapter where it stated:
The Color Research Institute conducted an experiment after it
began suspecting the reliability of people's comments. Women
while waiting for a lecture had the choice of two waiting rooms.
One was a functional modern chamber with gentle tones. It had
been carefully designed for eye ease and to promote a relaxed
feeling. The other room was a traditional room filled with period
furniture, oriental rugs, expensive-looking wallpaper.
It was found that virtually all the women instinctively went into
the Swedish modern room to do their waiting. Only when every
chair was filled did the women start to overflow into the more
ornate room. After the lecture the ladies were asked, "Which of
those two rooms do you like the better?" They looked thoughtfully
at the two rooms, and then 84 per cent of them said the period room
was the nicer room.
Which I approached from the architectural and interior design angle, on the basis that reception / waiting rooms for lectures and so forth are thoroughfares and not meant to be ornate settings for: relaxing comfort, visual stimulation and verbal discussion ~ whereas relative comfort applies most certainly yes, but nothing more than just leaving the audience to focus on what they have come to focus on in respect of the lecture. Besides which ~ period furniture, oriental rugs and wallpaper are all costly considerations that require additional and therefore excessive maintenance, and not only that they provide stimulus for discussions that distract from the theme of the lecture, performance or whatever. The blander the better almost in that most facility owners want people in and out as efficiently as possible, not standing or sitting around holding things up before or after the presentation by way of discussing or feeling comfortable with the decor and whatnot.
Of course the thing about suspecting the reliability of peoples comments depends upon their private and public personae types socially and their experiential awareness of themselves personally, along with their unconscious, subconscious and preconscious compulsions and habituations, as which need to be appropriately considered and addressed in order to afford effective sales and reliable custom.
It was the stuff about "depth manipulation" that I found objectionable.
It's underhand.
Both of you could do a lot worse than read "The Hidden Persuaders" by Vance Packard.
I had a look on the internettle for said book and first listing that came was a PDF freebie ~ so in that I needed some time off site and off the internettle, I thought having something to read for a couple of nights might be a bit of bonus in that respect. As soon as I started reading ~ I remembered having read it during my first week at college studying graphic design, so that brought back a lot of memories from that time.
Packard’s notion that motivational research etcetera were in any way new was somewhat mistaken ~ being that it has been involved through all civilisations and cultures since the earliest of times, by way of familial guidance and social governance ~ and all that philosophically, theosophically and politically etcetera involving education and propaganda, negatively, positively and neutrally.
What was new to Packard and the uninitiated was just age-old standard procedure to others, i.e., tricks of the trade and all that. Darren Brown did a couple of series called ‘Trick of the Mind’ in 2004 and 2006, where he explained and demonstrated the art of persuasion and misdirection for getting people to do as directed. Maybe give them a watch if you have not already done so, or if you fancy a refresher possibly.
The combination of those techniques and the digital age, is a bit worrysome to be honest, and I feel that the danger ought to be more widely known, in the public interest.
Also, a second opinion as to whether I should concern myself about these matters is always appreciated, even if I might not agree at the time.
Well, as is the case with most professions and practices, danger needs to addressed for the sake of safe practice, and the methodologies of safe practice need to be emphasised to a greater extent ~ being that in the given context it is the mainstay of good advertising and healthy commerce; just as much as good behaviour and healthy relationships need to be exemplified for the greater good of society.
Your thoroughness and breadth is often a marvel.
A lot of what I was after was not immediately available, such as when newspapers, art galleries and museums etcetera were considered the influencers of the day back in late 18 hundreds ~ and earlier of course. The earliest immediate stuff I could find was circa 2015, and due to being exhausted from all the temporary deletions of the Akismet system and the resulting appeal notifications ~ I did not have the energy or wherewithal to spend however many days getting enough cookie clusters on the go to find the same concerns from the nineties or the naughties.
I did imagine that you were already cognisant of the algorithmic curates - both of modern digital means and the analogue methods of old - and that is precisely why I thought you would like to hear this particular programme reflecting on the here and now. The speed of the feedback loop has become MARKEDLY faster and more pervasive than ever before with an underlying drive to keep each individual "plugged in" at any cost - the "Smudge" algorythm was new to me.
With the speed of the feedback loop thing ~ I found it somewhat intriguing with having become habitually acclimatised to being on this site and others some years ago, when my computer’s disc drive broke down and I spent a couple of weeks going cold-turkey, which was fascinating.
Currently though, without as yet having the data wealth to cope with audible or visual data loads and listen to the ‘The Digital Human: Curate’ programme; I am assuming until then that “Smudge” algorithms involve incremental piece by piece data harvesting ~ for invasive access to bank accounts and whatever else with trojan spyware and virus codings and all that state of affairs.
Computers are powerful so we need to remain wise as well as smart.
Oddly enough, computers are not even computers as of yet, just advanced calculators. So, until humans get their cardial, intestinal and cerebral brains psychologically and physiologically integrated and harmonised with the fact that frequency (not time) and space involve in-and-out-spiralling infinite holographies ~ quantum computing is going to remain somewhat of mystery, and therefore not commercially available. So until computers are available, a reasonable amount of caution otherwise recognised as paranoia has been my approach to advanced calculators. >(Smilie Emoji)<
I had been expecting this to be 20-30% of respondents. I think you are the first. Groovy. Thanks for posting Sarah.
Look, I'm here because your Boss (xxxx) asked me to attend. I'm doing my job as required, and to be honest, you really need to take it up with him. I'm doing what I should be.
I saw you with Mary Jane outside - go on, hop-it lad.....we don't need your type round 'ere......unless you sling me £20 or give me the "appropriate" hand waggle and code phrase?!
I'm on the list. Here's my lammy...
Can't you read mate....the "Men At Work" sign is up.....have you got the right tickets to be here mate?
Tap tap. Is this thing on?
Wow - you swerved like an open-mouthed basking shark there, collecting all the plankton from round abouts ! Don't get me wrong, I am not saying anything other than - you've widened a thought or two about algorithms and attention into matters of civilisational existentialism in one powerful swish of your tail ! I'll need some time to be with this writing before responding.
Thank you Sperg - I like to think.
But you two do care. And this is a time in history where a few people who care could make a huge difference to future history. And everyone is going to "care" when J.I.T fails hard.
If indeed we are in the process of a "Great reset", there will come a point where the people demand better more logical well informed leadership. They will eventually want virtuous leaders who can learn from the mistakes of the past.
I want our next crop of leadership to be aware of but shy away from "The Hidden Persuaders".
All of us autists at one point or another have faced that subtle power because we work on some levels that "don't fit the model". There's also obviously a lot of quite intelligent people amongst us.
We face the choice every day of being "victims or victors" when most of us would just like to get on with things without being either.
I offer the hypothesis, that since the techniques described in that book are being used unrestrictedly all the time, to manipulate the population as a whole, via it's basest instincts & subconscious drives, that Autism far from being something "new" is just a fairly common way of being that has been much easier to integrate into society than it is now. Now due to our inbuilt questioning and tendancy to want a complete set of data to work from, we automatically modern life harder than we ever did, we bump up against nonsensical conventions that we struggle with, unlike the more logical and survival / community based conventions that used to prevail.
In my case I never wanted to be "Awkward", but I "think wider", and that makes me ask questions.
One question I keep asking myself, is that since we had a halfway tolerable life before the industrial revolution, a revolution which has definitely reduced the need for people to live in subsistence, why do we all have to pay a mortgage and work so hard to pay it off in jobs that to me in a lot of cases look like pointless activity? Why are there so few real creative Artists and Inventors in this age of plenty?
Almost without exception, I have noted that - literally - "no one cares" - unless they have a special interest in these matters or they have a thorough understanding of history - whether that be modern or ancient. History is not fashionable these days !
Both of you could do a lot worse than read "The Hidden Persuaders" by Vance Packard.
The combination of those techniques and the digital age, is a bit worrysome to be honest, and I feel that the danger ought to be more widely known, in the public interest.
Also, a second opinion as to whether I should concern myself about these matters is always appreciated, even if I might not agree at the time.
Your thoroughness and breadth is often a marvel.
I did imagine that you were already cognisant of the algorithmic curates - both of modern digital means and the analogue methods of old - and that is precisely why I thought you would like to hear this particular programme reflecting on the here and now. The speed of the feedback loop has become MARKEDLY faster and more pervasive than ever before with an underlying drive to keep each individual "plugged in" at any cost - the "Smudge" algorythm was new to me.
Computers are powerful so we need to remain wise as well as smart.
Thank you for sharing these and giving this thread a colourful flare in its dying exchanges.
My pleasure, although this thread rather than dying might just go into slumber mode and possibly be revived by community members yet to be.
I think you might enjoy listening to a radio programme - covering how algorithms now curate what images and content are put before us - how and why. It won't be everybody's cup of tea - but I definitely think it is worth 30 minutes of your attention:- BBC Sounds / The Digital Human / "Curate." I love to be educated this way.
And for those that do also ~ here is the link for which
The Digital Human: Curate
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001jkkq
Or if you prefer a read with a few watches rather than just a listen ~ here is another link:
How Algorithms And Filter Bubbles Decide What We See On The Internet
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/articles/zd9tt39
Or if you just prefer a read:
How Algorithms Subtly Control What We Read, Hear, Watch And (Ultimately) Think
Or if you are little more into the psychology of which:
How Algorithms Change The Way People See Things
https://www.networkworld.com/article/3104626/how-algorithms-change-the-way-people-see-things.html
And the paper being discussed is by way of it’s abstract and link as follows:
Algorithms And The Everyday
Our everyday practices are increasingly mediated through online technologies, entailing the navigation and also oft-simultaneous creation of large quantities of information and communication data. The scale and types of activities being undertaken, the data that are being created and engaged with, and the possibilities for analysis, archiving and distribution are now so extensive that technical constructs are necessarily required as a way to manage, interpret and distribute these. These constructs include the platforms, the software, the codes and the algorithms. This paper explores the place of the algorithm in shaping and engaging with the contemporary everyday. It does this via an exploration of some particular instances of algorithmic sorting and presentation as well as considering some of the ways these contribute to shaping our everyday practices and understandings. In doing so, it raises questions about understandings of agency and power, shifting world views and our complex relationship with technologies.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304193086_Algorithms_and_the_everyday
Due though to having a limited data service currently, I will give my attention to the Radio 4 program once I’ve got an unlimited data account on the go sometime soonish hopefully ~ although algorithms have always ‘curated’ to lesser or greater degrees how we see, hear and do things through the internet ~ just as influential systems and styles of psychological and sociological advertising have by way of: televisions; radios; magazines; newspapers; bill and sandwich boards; shop-windows and stalls; pamphlets; mail; door to door, street and market traders and formal word of mouth along with informal hot and cold ‘how the other half live’ gossip and all that through the ‘ages’ (i.e., the two to three and half thousand year ones) involving their respective technologies, products, campaigns, resources and supply lines etcetera.
The basic emphasis though in all this is not to fall hook, line and sinker for the ‘carrot-so-not-at-the-end-of-the-stick-trick’ ~ i.e., suggestive selling and habitual buying, and of course be careful that if there is a carrot at the end of the stick ~ make sure it is not proverbially one of those made in Taiwan plastic jobs. >(Smiling Emoji)<
I studied graphic design ~ and advertising was and remains obviously perhaps a very much interwoven aspect of which, and as I also studied psychology and sociology, I am kind of familiar with all the algorithm and product research and placement interactions and all that ~ so I am imaging the radio programme might be more of a refresher for me perhaps.
Thank you for sharing these and giving this thread a colourful flare in its dying exchanges.
My pleasure, although this thread rather than dying might just go into slumber mode and possibly be revived by community members yet to be.
I think you might enjoy listening to a radio programme - covering how algorithms now curate what images and content are put before us - how and why. It won't be everybody's cup of tea - but I definitely think it is worth 30 minutes of your attention:- BBC Sounds / The Digital Human / "Curate." I love to be educated this way.
And for those that do also ~ here is the link for which:
The Digital Human: Curate
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001jkkq
Or if you prefer a read with a few watches rather than just a listen ~ here is another link:
How Algorithms And Filter Bubbles Decide What We See On The Internet
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/articles/zd9tt39
Or if you just prefer a read:
How Algorithms Subtly Control What We Read, Hear, Watch And (Ultimately) Think
Or if you are little more into the psychology of which:
How Algorithms Change The Way People See Things
https://www.networkworld.com/article/3104626/how-algorithms-change-the-way-people-see-things.html
And the paper being discussed is by way of it’s abstract and link as follows:
Algorithms And The Everyday
Our everyday practices are increasingly mediated through online technologies, entailing the navigation and also oft-simultaneous creation of large quantities of information and communication data. The scale and types of activities being undertaken, the data that are being created and engaged with, and the possibilities for analysis, archiving and distribution are now so extensive that technical constructs are necessarily required as a way to manage, interpret and distribute these. These constructs include the platforms, the software, the codes and the algorithms. This paper explores the place of the algorithm in shaping and engaging with the contemporary everyday. It does this via an exploration of some particular instances of algorithmic sorting and presentation as well as considering some of the ways these contribute to shaping our everyday practices and understandings. In doing so, it raises questions about understandings of agency and power, shifting world views and our complex relationship with technologies.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304193086_Algorithms_and_the_everyday
Due though to having a limited data service currently, I will give my attention to the Radio 4 program once I’ve got an unlimited data account on the go sometime soonish hopefully ~ although algorithms have always ‘curated’ to lesser or greater degrees how we see, hear and do things through the internet ~ just as influential systems and styles of psychological and sociological advertising have by way of: televisions; radios; magazines; newspapers; bill and sandwich boards; shop-windows and stalls; pamphlets; mail; door to door, street and market traders and formal word of mouth along with informal hot and cold ‘how the other half live’ gossip and all that through the ‘ages’ (i.e., the two to three and half thousand year ones) involving their respective technologies, products, campaigns, resources and supply lines etcetera.
The basic emphasis though in all this is not to fall hook, line and sinker for the ‘carrot-so-not-at-the-end-of-the-stick-trick’ ~ i.e., suggestive selling and habitual buying, and of course be careful that if there is a carrot at the end of the stick ~ make sure it is not proverbially one of those made in Taiwan plastic jobs. >(Smiling Emoji)<
I studied graphic design ~ and advertising was and remains obviously perhaps a very much interwoven aspect of which, and as I also studied psychology and sociology, I am kind of familiar with all the algorithm and product research and placement interactions and all that ~ so I am imaging the radio programme might be more of a refresher for me perhaps.
