The Autism Industrial Complex

There's a source in my post itself by Alfie Kohn, a psychologist who works with educators, parents, and therapists globally. 

I'll connect a couple more links with one being how rewards are proven to make things worse off than they were in the beginning. 

https://youtu.be/Iw0Qxz2dKNo

Self-Determination Theory 

https://youtu.be/m1d_AR-r0Iw

Yes, bullying can be stopped without the use of violence. Why do bullies choose people they perceive as vulnerable? That should tell you a bit about what they think about themselves.

Sometimes people don't understand what they're doing and how their actions effect others. In some circumstances all it took was telling them it is upsetting and they feel guilty showing their apology is legitimate. Most of the time it takes getting to and solving the root issue of what's happening beneath the surface in the bully's mind. Something's motivating them to bully people, remove the motivator and they are no longer motivated to bully. 

Solving problems takes more than looking at the outside appearance of something. Can you solve a problem in a house if the only information you have is the outside appearance of the house? 

Daniel said:

positive reinforcement in and of itself is abusive. 

I think it would be more helpful if you could quote a source on that since positive reinforcement is a widely popular method in many parenting books and behavioural therapies often written by actual family therapists and child psychologists. I'm sorry but that's simply too big a claim to not back up.

Actually whether you mean it or not your words and especially this claim are particularly accusatory so it is cruel and unusual to dismiss ️️ 's reaction so out of hand.

There is no aggressive tone coming from me, it's sad you find facts aggressive, only the guilty do so. In neither of your two responses did you justify your suggestion of doing the wrong thing just because it's easier, that was Lovaas's idea he based gay conversion therapy and autism conversion therapy on, that it's easier to change a "sub-human" than destigmatize a behaviour in society. Even though that's a fact, it's still the wrong thing to do. 

Everything I've said is in your response, you said we should fit in even though we know that harms us, that's you suggesting we should conform to social norms whether they're immoral or not. I didn't say you have immoral ideas, I supported my claim by pointing out to you social norms are not inherently good providing examples. 

Choosing to strip a person of human autonomy for the sake of preventing bullying is synonymous that we should allow bullies all their rights and abuse the minority by disallowing them the psychological human need of human autonomy and emotional regulation. Disallowing your daughter autonomy for the sake of bullies is psychological abuse. So it's certainly not "positive reinforcement" especially as positive reinforcement in and of itself is abusive. 

Bullies can be modified or taught to stop bullying without the use of violence. It takes going below their surface and see what's going on in their mind and behind the scenes. Something motivates them to bully people, the fact they always choose people they assume to be vulnerable should tell you something about what they think about themselves. I were bullied myself, all I had to do was figure out their underlying problem, it's not always misunderstanding, there's lots of people they don't understand so why don't bullies bully them if it's all about misunderstanding?

Psychologically abusing your daughter as a method to prevent bullying is still abuse whether it's intended or not. Doing the wrong thing for the right reason is still the wrong thing to do. 

Daniel, a lot of assumptions seem to have been made there. And a lot of words put into people's mouths (perhaps both ways now).
I think it's a little harsh to blame fellow autistic people for trying to make their interactions with allist and NT society easier, it's not always safe to "just be yourself" and that's not only true for just autists.
If we all agree it's NT/allist pressure that's primarily at fault here can we just take a moment (everyone) to pause and have a little compassion for eachother as we are all dealing with the same societal crap basket to varying degrees.
Maybe re-read what eachother are saying in case something got misunderstood and at least be open to the idea of giving eachother the benefit of the doubt.
I think I know what line spiralled all this misunderstanding but it's not me that needs to realise it. I'm just here letting you know what I see because it's very saddening to see this fallout*.

*(As an aside fallout seems to be happening a lot in general among other forum members too in the last few days, which is a shame because you'd think we would all be inclined naturally to ally with eachother for some greater community benefit. This forum has been breaking my heart recently.)

Daniel,

I am fine with you disagreeing with me but I do not appreciate your aggressive tone.  I am unsure of why you have so drastically judged me and taken my comment so angrily. 

Dawn,

Luckily my daughter and I have folks who are supportive of us and equally many who are not.  Some who bully my daughter for stimming and some people in past work places who called me weird.  I left those places and I've told my daughter she's allowed to use physical ways to teach the bullies and that if the teachers have an issue, they can talk to me.  I beat up a person at school after putting up with two years of bullying which made it stop but didn't make me feel good as I hate violence.

We all do our best in a society that is focused on deficits but there are a good many wonderful people doing great work to change this I feel and I hope.

Daniel said:

why not modify the bullies?

Oh, why did nobody think of that before? Have you found a way that works? When I was a kid I used to try to modify the bullies by punching their faces in, I thought they'd be much nicer with their nose on the other side of their head. Not sure if it worked or not.

I don't disagree that society needs to change, but it is not the easiest task and in the short term it is hardly immoral for a loving mother to want to protect her daughter by advising her how not to get bullied.

I more than strongly disagree with you about fitting in, you immediately fall in the logical fallacy of the bandwagon.

Women aren’t allowed jobs, slavery, racism, discrimination and more were deemed “socially significant” behaviour, you are suggesting if society chooses to be evil and immoral we should all be evil and immoral people. You are going to have to justify your idea that it’s better to stop your daughter stimming, you’re actually claiming we should approve bullies bullying people but not approve stimming, why not modify the bullies?

When you claim we need to conform what are you actually saying? You’re saying to people “stop being who you are” which illustrates society is so hypocritical, it claims to equally value everyone and directly does the opposite wishing to hurt people.

 I will not conform to your immoral idea that I must devalue and discriminate a minority and praise bullies for bullying someone. Your ideas are the same as Ole Ivar Lovaas’s.

Not going to lie but the best thread iv seen on here so far that headline is gold

We live in a capitalist society I don't think anyone should be shocked at shameless marketing and money making schemes anymore. I worry more about the role "speaks" plays in emboldening eugenics ideologies towards autists and other neurodivergent people.

Yes, don't modify, be bullied. Modify (mask), suffer the burn out later. It's Hobson's choice for you and it can't be easy.

We can just pray for a paradigm shift to let her stim with out fear whenever and wherever sometime in the future.

Don't get me started. One of those quack American pseudo science fb things popped up in my feed yesterday. It was supported by a disturbingly large number of people globally (mostly parents, rather than autistic people) wanting to 'pray away' autism, 'refuse to accept the diagnosis', 'hug their children every day' (fine, only so long as the children actively want to be hugged). I could detect they were all ABAers, one guy referred to autistic people as a "mentally handicapped". I know I shouldn't but left a comment stating we are nothing of the sort. Apparently, he thinks I'm "attention seeking" and it's all ok for me if I'm "high functioning". Ok, guys give me some sanity here, lol.

But it disturbed me. It shook me out of my illusions that we might be making progress here. There is some great research going on in this country to get us services and support which works with not against our neurologies. I thought we were winning the attitudinal war, even if the resources for implementation are largely absent.

But alas! Quacks still want to exploit the parents of kids experiencing difficulties who are understandably finding it tough, telling them they can "cure" their autistic child.

My blood was boiling...who on God's earth finds "handicapped" an acceptable term to apply to anyone these days? They do, apparently.

Daniel,

Unfortunately the way our society is structured means that most things are marketed and marketable.  I like to believe that the majority of people are genuine and wanting to help each other though.  I'm not sure how ABA has been used in different cases or what the individual experience of it is.  All I know it that in order to function in society, there are certain behaviours that are deemed acceptable. 

My daughter is Autistic and I have many traits but no diagnosis.  I explained to her at an early age that she'd need to find different ways of stimming because other people would not understand her need to do so.  It saddens me but I know how some people can be.  I guess this is a kind of positive reinforcement so she will not be bullied by those who do not understand Autism.  It's my way of protecting her but doesn't mean I am modifying her behaviour in a negative way because she can be free and herself when she's with me but we both have to act a certain way in public.  Sad but true.  What I find upsetting is that folks have to do this in order to "fit" into society and the people that aren't able to control their behaviours are labelled unfavourably by a society that doesn't understand.  :-(

I used to have a friend who was a dwarf growing up. In the technical medical sense. His mother put him on every fad diet known to man. All he needed was growth hormone but his parents wouldn't let him have that 'dangerous' artificial chemical stuff lest he catch cancer (or so they feared). So instead they subjected him to fad diets for years.

Where as autistic people who've experienced ABA just wish their parents had stoped at fad diets from what I hear. It crazy what parents will subject children to in the name of 'therapy' and their 'best interests.'

I think the emphasis is more on Positive Behaviour Support (PBS) here, which derives from the same behavioural roots but which is often presented as being more child centred.  As with ABA though, it's not child led and it's not, in terms of its foundational ideas, really person-centred.  Most autistic led training and autistic advocates would advise against it, in my experience anyway.  

Certainly there was a recent paper highlighting that it's more generally useful for those with learning disabilities, although I'm not sure what they or their parent, carers or friends think about it.  

community.autism.org.uk/.../231259

In interesting if some what American centric set of observations. I am concerned about the rise of ABA in the UK. But I'm not plugged in enough to the medical establishment to say much about how its being received by our own health system.