relative morality and the QuALY

So say hypothetically a demon appears in the prime ministers room one night and says:

Ahah prime minister. You must make a choice. Tomorrow I'm going to kill 50000 70 year olds. However if you press this red button I'm going to kill one 40 year old a day for 40 years. What will you do?

Well. You might think one person a day isn't very much. In the grand scheme of things tomorrow no one will notice. I mean yes the persons family will notice but not the press and the NHS and everyone. We won't have to worry about burying 50000 bodies all at once. It'd be chaos. If you do the maths maybe you figure out 40 years for 365.25 days (gota account for those leap years) thats 14690 deaths. Thats a lot fewer deaths than the 50000. However the 70 year olds have on average 10 years left to live (80 years is an average life expectancy). The 40 year olds have roughly 40 years to live. If you compare the number of years of life to live you loose 500000 years of life doing nothing. Pressing the red button you loose 587600 years of life just lost over a longer period of time.

The mathematically right decision is to let the 50000 70 year olds die all at once. But could you imagine any politician doing that? Knowing the uproar that would be in the press tomorrow. Everyone asking him why he didn't do something? Why they are piling up bodies in hospital carparks and talking of mass graves.

Maybe you don't think it's fair. If you value a life by the years some one had left doesn't that mean old peoples lives are worth less? But if you had an otherwise healthy 16 year old and 60 year old both needing the same transplant heart which one would you give it to? In the NHS it'd be the 16 year old.

This is the kind of calculation that needs to be done when you respond to a pandemic. You balance horrendous short term effects against long term ones that seem small over the short term but may end up being worse over the long term. And no one knows for sure whether they got it right. Because no politician wants to commission the research that might tell him that he has to tell the nation its in the national interest to let a lot of people die when action could prevent it.

It gets even worse when you get to the quality adjusted life year. If a life year is a measure of life length the QuALY is a measure of quality of life and time. 1 QuALY = one year of life in perfect health. The notion being that if you are so sick, maybe locked in with nothing but eye movement, or maybe you're in horrendous constant pain, maybe one more year of life means nothing to you. Maybe you'd rather die anyway. QuALYs is the NHSs way of trying to recon for the idea that a year of life in health might be worth more than 2 in bad health. Such choices do exist in medicine. Maybe you're treating for cancer and you say I can give you a month with out treatment or 6 with chemotherapy and transplants but you'll spend most of that 6 months in hospital feeling ill. People need to make a choice about what that extra 5 months is worth. And this is fairly simple ethically when it's a personal choice. But when it's a choice made for a group of people, say which drugs the NHS will or won't buy. Or will or won't we lock down, well its a lot harder isn't it.

The way QuALYs are calculated in practice is highly dubious. They go and ask people hypothetical questions like the one I mentioned above:

Press this button and you get AIDS but I extend your life by 10 years. Press the other button and I grow your leg back but your life is shorter 10 years.

Thing is it's quite hard to ask people with actual experience of a condition how many years they'd give up to avoid a rare condition. So a lot of the time they're asking people who've no experience of the condition they're being asked to contemplate about having it in exchange for more life. Which way you ask the question. Whether you ask a young or old person, some one with or without children, it all makes a difference. The QuALY isn't a great unit of measurement. But it's indispensable for the number crunchers in government.

The logic of government used to be that for most things a QuALY was worth 60000£ So say you want a handrail put up by a dangerous cliff. Well if you would save one person with one QuALY of life left fall to the death and the hand rail costs less than 60000£ its probably a good deal. Not for the NHS though if you want the NHS to spend money on you it's 15000£ per QuALY. Why? Because they recon if they gave the NHS 15000£ extra they could save about one QuALY of life with it. So anything that comes out of the NHS budget has a higher bar to pass, 4 times higher, than getting the government to pay for say traffic calming measures.

Arguably the QuALY system devalues the lives of disabled people based on the opinions about disability of people who are themselves often not disabled. With lockdown people like to talk about protecting the vulnerable of society but those with mental health issues or complex support needs are some of the most vulnerable people in society and lockdown is extremely bad for them. You could make the argument that by locking down you are sacrificing one set of vulnerable people (the mentally fragile, those with special / complex needs, those already isolated or who are susceptible to substance abuse or at risk of DV) for the sake of another set of vulnerable people, (the elderly and immune-compromised). Of course the elderly are a big voting block which other vulnerable sections of society are often not.

People on this forum seem to think lockdown was this simple black and white choice and any one who opposes covid restrictions is ignorant. It's much more nuanced. The real issue we should be worried about is the use of the QuALY in government health economics. Because the QuALY they put on autism is sure as hell not derived from the input of autistic people like you and me.

  • I was probably being facetious.

  • f you'd done me the courtesy of watching the videos you'd know what they are experts in...

    I've said my piece, and provided enough information for those who need some.

  • That's for you to decide. I'm not on the side that is telling you what to think, I'm on the side that provides you with the opportunity to think.

    It's a horse to water situation. Do as you will.

  • So it's full of misinformation then?

  • It is one of several websites set up to give people a voice when the mainstream stuff like twitter, facbook, and youtube started crushing any and all dissenting information during Covid.

  • I'd never heard of it before today

  • bitchute website

    Actually bitchute is kinda cool. In theory it's a youtube clone but with less moderation that's theoretically a lot cheaper to run than youtube. However it does seem to attract more than its fair share of nut cases.

  • Not just in close proximity of a few workers but in close proximity to a lot of workers. The developing world is doing agriculture and farming on an industrial scale but with much less automation and fewer safety protocols. Because they are anxious to keep costs down and humans are cheap and PPE etc is expensive. That means more people in close proximity to livestock. Also mixing live wild game with live farmed stock in the same facilities / wet markets is a huge issue. Nothing wild should come near anything domestic until it's dead and given basic hygiene treatments but these protocols are often not followed in the developing world.

  • I think this is the problem since the internet creates black and white situations (vax vs anti vax) and there's so much information people don't know what to believe anymore so people's reactions can be somewhat emotional.  Where is the video of people from both sides coming together and debating it? We just end up in echo chambers. The video of the american doctors talking is over 2 and a half years old. The mRNA man on your GB news said 11 months ago the vaccine will kill more children than it saves so why havent we heard of more deaths in children? I'm all for doing your research and looking at both sides but I always want to know what someone's agenda or background is. What's the agenda of this bitchute website, I mean, who owns it and what is their motive for being a platform for this? Do you have any other sources? 

    What I don't get is, if the pandemic was man made, where's the sense in killing and disabling some of the workforce who are cogs of the capitalist machine? Other diseases can be seen to be man made eg those caused by pollution but no one talks about that in the same way.

    I also think it's very easy to talk about conspiracy theory when you haven't been personally affected or disabled by a covid infection. But I don't know your situation. The woman in the last video gets me. Show me someone who has been really affected by a covid infection who think it is all a conspiracy.

  • Generic engineering doesn't create pandemics. Animal agriculture (and to a lesser extent wildlife trade) does. Cram a bunch of animals together in close proximity to human workers and you have perfect conditions for diseases to jump species. Animal farming is much more intensive than it used to be, which means the problem is only getting worse.

    You can't stop it as an individual, but you can avoid financially supporting the companies responsible by not buying animal products.

  • The virus has now been proven beyond doubt to have a laboratory origin, so my original point remains valid. 

    What proof? Show me one peer reviewed paper that is presenting a lab origin as anything more than a remote possibility?

    Currently Dr Fauchi is having a hard time remembering a lot of what he said on the public record and apparently he can't define "gain of function"

    If you are accusing him of being a poor scientific communicator or scatter brain then fine but there is a long way from being naff as your job (or part of your job) and part of a global conspiracy.

    That last link is very revealing, as it's the expert of experts in this field talkiing. If you want to "follow the science" this is THE science speaking to you directly.

    If it was actual science it wouldn't have to be in a bit chute video. Hell it doesn't take much to get a preprint on biorxiv.org so show me where is the brilliant bioinformatic analysis that shows the tell tail genetic fingerprints of lab manipulation?

    And yes, I have been doing my due diligence, currently I'm talking to undertakers informally, and establishing the truth of the matter.

    Undertakers? Since when were they experts on pandemics or viral mutation and genetic structure?

  • My point is in the event that this pandemic was man made (which it probably wasn't but reasonable people have differing opinions) it could have been natural. Lot of natural epidemics like SARS occurred previously. We know naturally occurring proto pandemic infections are bubbling away in the background quite a bit. Only a fraction turn into pandemics. As long as there are places where people live in proximity to large groups of live animals and public health care is poor, and as long as international travel to and from these places remains high, pandemics are going to be more frequent than they were say 50 years ago. There is no getting around the fact that international travel is a causative factor for pandemics being more frequent, even if hypothetically this one was man made, which I don't really care to debate whether it was or not.

  • "The very fact that no one can definitively rule out that the pandemic was man made is evidence that it doesn’t matter if it was."

    IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT WAS MAN MADE??

    So when they release that MAN MADE ebola/small pox chimera it "doesn't matter"??

    Some of us more responsible and better informed people, think it does.

  • Because so many of them have turned out to be true!!

    Shills like yourself can point to the nuttier ones to try and smear the clearer thinkers who are dong their darndest to provide a bit of clarity and provide the information that has been censored so widely, but Dr Fauchi is currently in court answering to his lies, as I type this.

    The virus has now been proven beyond doubt to have a laboratory origin, so my original point remains valid. 

    Currently Dr Fauchi is having a hard time remembering a lot of what he said on the public record and apparently he can't define "gain of function"

    Meanwhile undertakers all over the world are pulling massive and never before seen firbrous blod clots out of the vaccinated, and we now have sudden adult death syndrome, and athletes and kids falling over with heart attacks. NONE OF WHICH IS THEORY, it is a bunch of inconvenient FACTS.

    So you can take your conspiracy theory label and SHOVE IT!! 

    Meanwhile here are some inconvenient facts for the likes of you to chew on. 

    warning: Some of this is a bit harrowing and not for the "please take care of me, Mr government man" types, but we've been mislead and disparaged by the likes of you long enough.

    Embalmer information:  www.bitchute.com/.../

    Care home information. https://www.bitchute.com/video/LOXPGtf7SG30/

    "Died Sudenly" (Pink Floyd soundtrack!) www.bitchute.com/.../

    Doctors speaking out. https://www.bitchute.com/video/zr04GsUupOwk/

    And the INVENTOR of the technology speaks out: https://www.bitchute.com/video/QYoeC8M7JW5c/

    That last link is very revealing, as it's the expert of experts in this field talkiing. If you want to "follow the science" this is THE science speaking to you directly.

    And finally: Here's a pleasant lady addressing the ongoing abuse that we have grown tired of, and which fuels the obvious annoyance I feel when having to rebut yours (and uninformed people like your's) unfounded allegation of "conspiracy theory".  https://www.bitchute.com/video/4SLhJuIjTx9e/

    And yes, I have been doing my due diligence, currently I'm talking to undertakers informally, and establishing the truth of the matter.

    And since this is a little heavy I'll lighten the mood with a little Joke:

    Q: What's the difference between a "Conspiracy theory" and a proven fact?

    A: About eight months, currently...

  • But you’d be getting a great 5G signal now :p

    seriously why do people believe these vaccine conspiracy theories.

  • The very fact that no one can definitively rule out that the pandemic was man made is evidence that it doesn’t matter if it was. Man made pandemics that escape from labs spread just the same as those that occur from standard mutations.

    SARS 1 happened pre covid and was more lethal than covid. It could have been a pandemic if it had been just a bit more infectious or the public heath response in east Asia just a bit slower. In the last 10 years lots of little nasty diseases have sprung up that had the potential to go pandemic but they stayed local. Viruses mutate. They don’t need labs to do that. They do need international travel to spread quickly around the world though.

  • Ditto. Though, I do plan a cross-ferry coach trip to Manchester, and back, in March - for a Gig.

    But, the rest of the World can kiss my chuddies.

  • I was not complaining about accelerating pandemics of existing pathogens, it's the NEW MAN MADE ones that I'm tired of..

    (And as an unvaccinated person I have been forced back to pre-millenial levels of travel already..)

  • Thank God I didn't take any inoculation in 2021.

    It's a one-way journey towards Lib-Lab Dictatorship.

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