'gender incoherence' and Austism

To add: Not taking pleasure in domination of others, simply means I'm not Sadistic. 

NT Women are just as competitive as NT Men - it just looks different. 

Gender is about identity. And then there is Biology. I can't magically order science about. I wish I could. 

Identity is more than gender and one's sense of self needs to start with accepting and being aware of what we're made of, the character traits inherited, the ways we could use them to do harm or to heal. Becoming the self is potentially easier for someone who isn't subjected to the collective, and that's an important bit: Jung's collective unconscious (a good one to have as a momentary 'special interest) I have a feeling the current obsessing over Gender is really just another attempt to try and extract the NT self from the herd mentality they've been coded into, which seems to be ever closing in with homogenisation while 'Authenticity' just keeps buzzing with ever-growing intensity. It's all NeuroTypical theatrics (not putting it down, just putting it back on the stage it is better examined on). Once we recognise how being Autistic has actually kept us from this kind of encoding, the perspective on being marginalised can have an added positivity of liberation.

While we may have tried to incorporate social-isms to to receive affection or kindness or connect (most of us have observed this is how it's possibly done), we may have missed the secret codes that engender behaviour, like how climbing trees is socially expected from boys and dressing well to present oneself is expected from girls. But the reality is any given character trait or behaviour or matter of being human isn't male or female. There might be particular expressions which are different due to Natural Biology, but really the goal is to make a bit of an effort to not be an a**hole. For instance, there's nothing wrong with taking your time shopping to make it relaxing and less stressful and doing it right on the first go. Why not open doors for others to be kind, have meaningful conversations and respect others who can't cope with them. The ideal man in the Victorian era apparently appreciated the Art of Sensory Awareness and created a quality self. Why should it be any different now simply because many have realised they can get by not caring about their self and virtue signal about being a complete armchair. Males aren't attractive when they're selfish and reckless. Nor are females. 

It does take work to become oneself. Most things are earned or a privilege. Biology matters. And most of us have been misunderstood in character and being from a young age, so honestly, I really could care less if you call me they him her, it's such a micro-point. You don't affect My identity: something Autistics can more easily say, I believe.

These studies and discussions leave much to be desired. 

Shardovan said:

A tendency to think more deeply, be more reflective, hurt for a long time, and lacking that competitive drive that's more classically masculine even in non-Alphas

Deep and Reflective are the men coating our Libraries shelves. Unable to let-go is also a need for resolution. Depending on how it's phrased, I think is how society will engender it. A N-Typical man will rage or binge or externalise or obsess or stalk or exhibit predatory signs. That competitive drive is uniquely NeuroTypical. NT women I've discovered are just as competitive - obsession with hierarchy/dominance. So, Collaboration is more in our nature.  

Just thinking out loud...

Hi James, thanks for the welcome

Dawn said:

I loved Laura Kate Dale's book Uncomfortable Labels on being both Autistic and a trans gay woman.

Thanks for recommending this Dawn.

Thanks for your message, BlendedSpob - particularly the stressing of the need for caution and perspective.

Hope things are going well - or at least being clearer - after your diagnosis.

(And welcome to the boards, and welcome to the community!)

First Post here!

I will check out this study tomorrow. Looks very interesting.

I will say though, a single study should be treated with a great deal of caution. It may be correct, may not be correct, just hard to say without more research. The example I give for this that I recently looked into is hrt in women, with earlier work causing panic, then later work suggesting it's probably more beneficial than not, in younger women, though even that isn't clear.. And we are talking a lot of studies, and meta studies. So a single study, be cautious.

Anecdotally though, male here, I would consider myself more on the female side, trait wise, though I look very masculine and can be quite competitive, if I choose to indulge that. But I do have a softer side than most men appear to have. I would guess a large part of that is me caring a bit less about showing, and admitting that than most men, however.

That's a big confounder tbh, as its possible autistic men aren't as driven by social norms, and the social norm is veey skewed towards not showing (and not self admitting) "feminine" traits. The same likely applies to women (hiding more masculine traits may be socially unacceptable), and NTs may be more driven to hide / suppress those traits.

I am completely speculating however, haven't read the study and don't know much about autism yet (diagnosed just over a week ago. 

Very very interested in this though so will look further. 

Well said

and Māori from New Zealand

Why not?? It works for the Scots

I'm beginning to think I'm demi (after years of drunken whoring!)

There's so much talk of protecting society from anything that deviates from traditional gender stereotypes.  If see someone in a suit I think, why do business people have to wear costumes? Why are pin-stripe shorts not acceptable? Why can some women acceptably walk around in very short skirts but others are frowned at? Blokes in skirts, they can be very comfortable (the skirts not the blokes. oh theyd be comfortable in a comfortable skirt so i guess both are comforatble). Who watched game of thrones and thought that some male characters looked more feminine because they were wearing skirts. Seriously you've never played rugby until you've played in a kilt.  oops sorry for the braindump!

If put like that I'm probably in that category too

Starting from being demisexual, so far only hetero, but that doesn't exclude bi, it just means I never met a guy that would raise my interest

I don't know how to play 'blokey' game, I don't fully understand it, and to be honest i find it digusting/childish

I don't understand games women play either

Most of the time I try to stay away from anything including behaviour based on gender variation, or talking about it with strangers

My path is:

There is only logic (I wish there was emoticon for Vulcan's handsign)

I have Gender Incoherence (giggle) and will be following with interest :)

'Gender Defiant Disorder' sounds like a really negative label.  I thought 'condition' was the new 'disorder'?

Yes I know I'm pulling it apart, but does the author elaborate on masculinised and feminised characteristics.

Personally, gender expression seems like gender masking to me (if such a thing exists).  Blokes are blokey to fit in with other blokes playing the 'let's be a bloke' game. Don't get me started on women lol.

I do it too. I'm blokey with tradesmen (dreadful stereotype). I once met a really hot plumber and first thing I did was to waffle on about central heating in a deep Leeds accent. He turned around to me and said in the campest voice ever, 'show me your c*ck, darling'.  We bantered plumbing related inuendo for hours. oops TMI.

So there's lots out there about how under-represented women have been in studies and there's a raft of content dedicated to discussing female traits.  There are also those dedicated to male traits. I've watched many and always have a problem with the idea that masking is a very much bigger thing for women and they're better at it. I'm a man and I could mask for Yorkshire, but saying that most of the content for men plays heavily on issues of frustration and anger. I don't do that stuff.  Does that make me more feminine, gender incoherent or is it full blown Gender Defiant Disorder?

Very interesting study. Although the study itself isn't that recent (2012) I wasn't previously aware of it. It helps to explain some of my previously unexplained health issues. The study also cites some earlier research stating "hormonal studies of children with ASD have shown elevated androgens, especially in girls and females with ASD often report androgen-related conditions in adulthood"

I'm female and suffered from severe acne for many years, starting in my teens and persisting well into my forties. After usual types of treatment failed I was told it was caused by hormonal factors, specifically too much testosterone. I was put on medication, to reduce the testosterone and other androgens, and remained on that for many years.

I also had the ovarian cysts related to too much testosterone. Aged 30 I experienced premature ovarian failure and was told I wouldn't be able to get pregnant (not that I wanted to). I was post menopausal by the age of 32.

I did not know until now that any of this was autism related. Another unexplained issue from my past finally clicks into place 

Thanks Dawnfor adding to the discussion. What you shared, the biological elements - and the social (that comment), are really striking in showing how autism can have all sorts of undernoted - and underdiscussed - implications and impacts.

And thanks for mentioning Laura Kate Dale's book. (I recently finished - and was greatly moved by - Didier Eribon's Returning to Reims, which talks about the intersections of class and sexuality and the pressure to take on "a different kind of dissociative personality or double consciousness". I was wondering if someone has addressed similar issues regarding autism.) Will take a look at Uncomfortable Labels.

Thanks for sharing HP35.

Thanks for saying that - but also thanks for voicing your point earlier. Given historical - and contemporary - treatment of autism, your first response is undertandable. (I often find myself having similar responses.)

In future, if I quote a source, I'll do my best to make clear from the start whether it has autistic input.

Lol. Reminds me of a Mickey Flanagan bit where his mate limps into the pub holding his back, he says to him 'what you been doing, lifting weights? A bit of five aside?'...

..he said, 'nah, I was wringin out a flanal'

my bad

Ha, ha! I have spent the last 3 days putting hot and cold compresses on my back, I pulled something lifting a box of shopping!