Discovery 4 - The social world. I would go out tonight....

Hi Tiny Explorer, I completely agree with your view on "the absolutist language of deficits". I've actually just posted a new thread where I relate to this.

The symbolic filtering issue I mentioned is an abbreviated summary of what I read in the book and I may have described it inadequately or incorrectly. I actually had some trouble understanding this concept, but I believe it relates to how NT brains use symbols to filter sensory inputs so they don't get overloaded. My own interpretation is that it might work like this: a bus stops near where I'm standing. I have the symbol for that object in my memory - the word "bus". But I still hear the engine noise, see the people on it, smell the exhaust fumes, etc. If an NT person is standing there and sees the bus, their brain projects the word "bus" outward, which causes the brain to filter the sensory inputs from the bus, allowing them to ignore those inputs while chatting to a friend, noticing a cute puppy being walked along the path, telling their child to keep hold of their hand, etc, all executed effortlessly without stress. I may have completely misunderstood  the process as I have no real understanding of NT brains, but it sounds plausible as I get exhausted by life outside of my home, whereas most people don't,  so this sort of makes sense to me.

I think it depends how intense or severe your autism is. Personally, I love talking to people about all sorts. (Although I'm female and on the very mild end of the spectrum.) I also have a friend, female, who has AS, she's really chatty and easy-going and talks about whatever. Maybe that's also a factor - the gender difference between male/female AS. I've found women are naturally more able to talk about things outside of their own interests.

Rocinante said:

I went to a clairvoyant evening on Saturday

What do you do at a clairvoyant evening?

This is interesting. sad actually. :(

I read similar perspectives a few time recently on another autism forum. People ready to talk about their hot topics, staying in comfort zone, but don't respond/pick up cues from other even autistic people to engage. Missed opportunities. 

Is that monotropism? Like one don't notice a hook thrown to us?

In relation to that group, is that the level of life exposure, education, experience do you think? Like people haven't been exposed to enough content to engage on a topic? Basically linked to level of functioning ..

Or is it about autistic group needing an explicit common purpose that would sort of hoover everyone in. Like the group should be about  building a scale model, or a website...?

The problem with the NT development is that it is not really well understood, especially when you start asking questions about autistic development, because both should have the same biological and theoretical underpinning to be valid theories. There are several dozens of theories, they are all flawed and fail to explain significant facts than don't fit. 

That with scientific theories, let alone fiction books...

I think autistic people need to stop internalising the absolutist language of deficits. The jury is out and evidence not even fully disclosed. Everything in autism is questioned and evolves.

Especially the idea that autistic people don't have capacity for abstract thought - don't understand symbols. This is basically inaccurate and potentially dehumanising as abstract thought is believed to separate us from animals, so this ableist stigmatisation needs to be called out.

Lotus said:

Autistic people do not develop this symbolic filtering and so stay sensitive to inputs.

[I know it's the book, not Pixiefox saying this]

Of course we do develop symbols, we use language, so we have symbols for sensory. This rambles on and on because nobody cares to call it a nonsense.

Lotus said:

This means that when a new idea or view is introduced, all the group have to learn and assimilate the new information together, in lock step, which slows down learning and the taking on of new ideas. This may explain why in the past I have suggested an idea in a work meeting and been ignored - either because I was subconsciously seen as a group outsider by colleagues, or because I wasn't seen as an influential figure

You are definitely onto something here, Pixiefox.

I can't recall where I read recently that small talk amongst NT has important function - it is a process of establishing the group hierarchy and the standing in the pecking order. If anyone knows where it was written, please provide a link.

So I think this group pecking order might be key to autism and bullying and exclusion. Autistic people are not rated in this hierarchy and also don't accept the supposed pecking order, and this might be what triggers bullying, mobbing and exclusion.

So indeed, I think the idea becomes widely accepted when it is presented by an insider and /or an individual with an influential position in the group. The role of an innovator is to convince the influencer and potentially to become influencer themselves.

Мдагко идащеио плвдшпл та млн! 

And I suppose when you really no longer fit and can’t find any enjoyment then suicide is a real choice 

I like my own space a lot and need to decompress after socialising to any degree. However with music I have scripted space that is mine to play in. A bit like an actor playing his part. Together we make up the whole piece of music, or play in the case of acting. I can feel included, yet comfortable. Maybe it’s a cop out to some people’s way of thinking, but to me it’s being included in a larger group and staves off the loneliness. I also enjoy crafting alongside others. 

I've just been on a NAS-sponsored social - but didn't really enjoy it.    It was like a bunch of dial-up modems training and failing.   Trying to establish proper communication but not succeeding.  I had to leave in the end through fatigue - it was really tiring trying to find common ground.

I get on better with NTs because they chat about anything.  The auties only wanted to talk about their specialities.

"...but I haven't got a stitch to we-ear."

That's not really an excuse I've ever used, but I've usually made some excuse or other.

Lotus said:

In the past I have found I had to work much harder at maintaining relationships, always being the one to call for a chat, suggest meeting, etc. Now I can't be bothered. I have a few colleagues I feel I get on well with but I wouldn't really class them as friends as I don't socialise with them outside work, but I'm happy with  that.. I  don't want to go out,  I want to stay in, get things done...

That goes for me, too.  I hardly ever go out.  I went to a clairvoyant evening on Saturday and saw a few people there I know, but I didn't want to stay.  I wanted to get home again as soon as I could.  I don't really have friends as such, but I'm friendly with people, especially those I work with.  Some of them seem to know they can talk to me and have opened up about mental health issues, which isn't the usual thing people would discuss with acquaintances.  i think it's because they know I'm autistic and are intelligent enough to realise that's probably caused me some mental health problems too, which it has.  I feel much more of a closeness to people like that, even if they hold different views or opinions to mine in other senses, because it's a shared understanding.  The only people I've ever really been friends with in my later years have usually been those I've met at mental health or autism groups, or substance misuse support groups when I was drinking heavily.

I no longer like to think of the "triad of impairments" and I'm assuming you don't either as you put the term in quotes, too.  It's a useful way to look at the areas where autistic people have difficulties, but they're only impairments in a neurotypical context.  I think the research being conducted into predictive coding is an encouraging way forwards.