Problems with authority/feeling harassed

Thanks for your reply!  

I've been told my work is excellent, but the problems with my line manager causes them concern as they can't trust me to do what I've been told and take basic instruction.  And due to my condition I interpret some policies incorrectly so they don't think I'm capable of doing my job.  I'm basically facing dismissal at this moment, and the main reason is because I don't get on with my line manager.  They see me talking to other members of staff ok but not to her, which they have classed as selective communication problems.  But to me, the other members of staff haven't tried to control me and don't tell me I need to look at them and talk to them.  I'm close to just giving up with it all really.  Your experience is helpful though, and does make me want to keep trying.  

Hi, yes, that’s right, you’ll find your way. My first support worker, who wasn’t a specialist in autism at all, she was a well being officer for the local social services, but she taught me that we would try things, and if they don’t work, it’s ok, we’ll try something else. She helped me to learn how to explore, in my own way, what helps me and what doesn’t and how I can make the most of these unique gifts. She used to tell me, who says your way isn’t the right way? Who says everyone else isn’t getting it wrong? She was really great, and still keeps in touch with me. 

It takes time, but it’s a life long thing anyway, so you might as well take it easy and enjoy the journey. 

I then got support through autism plus, via the job centre, for a limited time, 4 months. They said I could pay privately and continue the sessions, but that wasn’t an option for me at that time. And I have just recently been referred back to them, by reed’s better lives program, again, via the job centre. 

I’ve been totally rude to my advisor at reed, every time I’ve seen her and she’s been totally amazing.  I don’t know how they work out what I need (or put up with me) when I don’t even know, but I guess if I knew, I wouldn’t need the help! And I’m even getting to like the woman now. It just takes me a little while to warm to people, it seems. 

I’m not an easy person to support so if I can be helped, anyone can! Just keep going until you get the right help. It’s invaluable, you just have to be willing to put in the work, which is not easy, especially for an autistic like me! 

But it’s not silly, you know, the way we react. I know what you mean though, but I grew to accept that it’s just part of who I am. I don’t try and change it, I’m finding ways around it and I’m currently working towards working for myself now anyway. Because there are too many other things about the normal work place that don’t suit me, that this was my only option for a stress free life. 

Anyway, best of luck with it all. Keep going, and don’t stop until you get what you want, but take it easy, and always be good to you. I think you’re doing great. 

Access to work for many conditions doesn't actually need a diagnosis, but even if they did not give it you for your autism you could still get support for stress/anxiety/depression from a stress counsellor.  But have any information to hand that you have from your doctor, including AQ scores which indicate autism and the way you are affected which makes it difficult for you in your job.

In any case they will contact you before they contact your employer and before any visit and explain the procedure.  It is not in any way like a PIP assessment although the same companies may be involved in the assessment.   Mental health conditions (which although Autism is not really a mental health condition is where it fits) are I believe dealt with by Remploy if you don't have a local Autism Service authorised to provide help through Access to Work.

I'm so glad someone else has felt the same things and can relate, about shutting down and blocking any attempt at building a relationship.  When I step back from the situation I can see it's stupid, and it's only recently I've noticed that it's happened to me over and over and doesn't seem to happen to other people.  What you say makes a lot of sense, and I need to try and find my own way of working through it.  

I'm not getting any support at the moment from anywhere, but have just applied (last night) for access to work help.  I'm not sure I'm eligible as I'm on the waiting list for an assessment, but it's worth asking.  I said our occupational health company have said they can't help as they have no experience or expertise in autism.  Did you get help through access to work?

Thanks for your reply and sharing your experience.  Makes me feel better other people have the same struggles and don't just tell me to 'play the game.'  

I definitely have found this to be the case quite often.  And that’s how I feel at the moment with my current line manager.  Every time I’ve raised problems with training, communication etc I’ve been told she’s been there for years and knows a lot more than me.  

Many times in the past I’ve found some of the worst people that have been promoted to management roles have been the ones worst at the job.  They micromanage and belittle others to cover their incompetence.  I’m really bad at lying, and I just don’t get this ‘game.’  People keep telling me to play the game, smile, and talk about holidays or the weather. But if I struggle with someone or feel out of control this is just impossible for me.  

Hi NAS50557, yes, I can relate.

I recognised, after many years, and before I got my diagnosis, that I had this same problem and over the years, it got me either into a lot of trouble or like you, I would shut down and therefore block any opportunity of developing any kind of relationship with the other person, or even myself, because at that time, I simply didn’t understand it and I would feel upset with myself because of my reaction on top of the actual misunderstanding that I was feeling bad about as well, which I couldn’t fully understand at the time. 

Of course, being autistic, I thought everybody was like this, but I noticed, over the years, that most most weren’t like that. I would notice these weird friendly relationships between managers and workers and how workers wouldn’t take things so personally or they wouldn’t have such violent reactions to being told no. I was amazed at how they could do that and equally amazed that I couldn’t! It was a complete mystery to me. 

It wasn’t until I got into an intimate relationship with somebody who didn’t have the same problem, that I began to get some understanding around it and I was able to slowly, do something about it. 

I realised that no matter what my reaction was, the reaction was mine and I could see that it was an over reaction on my part but without awareness of autism, it was difficult to understand it, but even without autism awareness, I was able to do something about it. 

I could never change my initial reaction, but I did learn to not react so strongly to my reaction, if that makes sense. For example, if my manager said no to me, I would get that feeling of being trapped, like they had control of me and I would just tell myself that that’s not true, it’s just something in me that was reacting to being told no so I would sort of counsel myself, talk to myself. I would tell myself it’s ok, they just said no. It doesn’t mean they hate me and want to control me, it just feels like that to me.

I found ways of soothing myself and bringing myself out of it so that I at least didn’t make the situation any more difficult than it was and certainly now I have much more understanding and awareness of autism and how it relates to me, I can do more about it. 

Where there’s a will there’s a way so you can find ways of getting around this and I’ve found, that after a lot of practice, I no longer feel that initial sting of ‘they’re trying to control me’ as strongly and I can certainly bring myself out of it much quicker now. Although we feel different things at different times so I’m not always able to catch it so quickly. 

But because I understand it now, I no longer give myself a hard time over it. I’m much kinder to myself and as a result, even though I never got comfortable with the whole employee/boss easy going friendly type of relationship, I was able to manage the feelings in me much better, which of course, made the life better and more in harmony for everybody. 

For me, it boils down to self awareness and understanding and finding ways of soothing myself and being able to at least manage it to the degree that it wasn’t causing the huge problems that it used to cause for me.

Be kind, gentle, understanding and patient with yourself (and others) and you can overcome it. You might never take away that initial feeling entirely, but you can learn to recognise it when it happens and have strategies that you’ve learned in place ready, to handle it when it happens. It takes practice and time, never give yourself a hard time if you do react and it causes a misunderstanding. None of us reacts perfectly all the time. 

So yeah, I would say keep on learning about autism and understanding how it relates to you, get to know yourself better and find ways to respond to these situations with plenty of self soothing techniques and giving yourself time out etc etc. 

Good luck with it. The first part of coming up with any kind of solution is recognising the difficulty in the first place then looking at what you can do to address it. Are you getting any autism support from anywhere? And also, when you have a good understanding of autism and how it effects you, it’s easier to convey that or to communicate that to others and I’ve found that my autism worker helps me to find ways of doing that. She even gave me a rubber bracelet thing that is green on one side and says happy to talk and red on the other that says please leave me alone. So if I’m in a situation where I can feel myself getting upset or closing down, I can simply put it on the red side, show the person and then take myself somewhere quite so I can gently soothe myself and bring myself out of it and to feeling calm again. There are lots of tips and tricks and aids that we can learn and use to help us and we can find ways of bringing our managers and others onboard as well, if we treat them with kindness and understanding and patience and realise how difficult it must be for them, to try and get an understanding of what it must be like for us. We have to help them understand and sometimes we need help to do that and the government is currently keen to spend money on autism support in the workplace so there is help out there, you just have to look and be patient as it might take a while to get the help, but you’ll get it if you’re patient. 

Thanks for your advice and comments on this, I have followed your advice and done an application for access to work.  I don’t know if I’ll get it though as I’m awaiting assessment.  I can’t get occupational health help at work as the occupational health providers we use have said they have no expertise in autism so would be unable to help, but as my GP referred me for assessment to treat that as a diagnosis and make some reasonable adjustments.  It’s worth trying though and see what they say.  I think if I could get a support worker for a while it would help so much, or I really do think I’ll lose this job.  How long did it take for them to contact you after your application?

many thanks again for sharing your experience and offering advice. 

Part of the problem is that beyond a certain point, being a "do-er" no longer leads to additional rewards.  For some reason the people that actually do are looked down upon.  Once you reach that point, if you want/need further career progression/rewards, then you have to become a manager.  At the point they become a manager, many perceive that you no longer do (anything) except manage (whatever they perceive that to be, but doing work doesn't usually seem to be a part of it).  My experience seems to suggest that the three most common draws for people wanting to go into management are:

1. Laziness,

2. Reward hungry,

3. Desire to bully.

People rarely seem to be selected for management on the basis of their ability to manage anything, lead and look after their team, find problems and solutions, plan and execute projects etc.

Often the people selected to manage something were actually never any good at what they were selected to manage, and they don't have any interest in it.  So they can't help their team improve their skills/performance etc. because they don't know how to do it well anyway!  Instead they seem to waste time chasing unicorns at the end of rainbows expecting to see mystical rewards for things they don't understand.

In my first job I was unfortunately lucky in that the management was actually very good.  Ofc. I didn't realise that at the time, being a youngling and all.  I've also come across the odd manager who could actually manage.  The good managers never really seem to do very well in the organisations though.

Essentially the only ability it seems selects for management is ability at the social game and a desire/willingness to bully people.

There is an online form on the Access to Work website.  They will then contact you and your employer and arrange to see  you at work and assess your needs.

It is totally the opposite of PIP assessments, in that they want to help you, and my assessor was extremely helpful.  Their purpose is to keep you in work, and should there be equipment you need they can also fund that.  Your employer may end up paying some of the cost depending on the number of employees there are.

They will also suggest other adjustments such as screening if you need it to avoid distraction or a desk far away from the 'action' in the office or another room if there is one.

Access to Work: 

https://www.gov.uk/access-to-work

I think that sounds exactly what I need.  How did you go about getting that help?  I think it could make a huge difference, to both my employer and to myself.  Did you apply for it yourself?

I think Access to Work may be able to help you, not least that it may be possible for you to get funding for a support worker through them.

I have a support worker and she is a great help explaining to my line manager the difficulties I have in social interraction as well as other work related problems.

I get two sessions a month, of one and a half hours each session.  One session is with my line manager as well, and the other session is (confidential) between me and my support worker, where we talk of any problems anywhere as well as talking on anything and everything.  It really is a great help.

Expecting you to act like a neurotypical is not going to help you in the least.  What needs to happen is your line manager to understand your problems and adapt accordingly.  Trying to make you say 'good morning' and engage in small talk will not work and only make you feel worse.

Access to Work can also arrange for training for your managers and colleagues so they can begin to understand your problems.

It was definitely the case that no one was concerned for months when I said I was struggling.  

I know I need to be able to start being able to rebuild the relationship, I just really struggle to do this.  I said it would take some time and would need to happen naturally, a good starting point would be to just have meetings to discuss work, because then there is a purpose to the conversation, and from there conversations will start to happen naturally.  But I'm told that's not good enough I can't have things my own way, I need to be able to have conversations and start each day saying good morning and asking how she is etc.  It sounds stupid that I can't just do this, but to me it's just trying to force something.  

Trust, once lost, is hard to regain.

I wouldn't feel bad about your line-manager going home in tears.  That is her problem that she must address.  She didn't seem particularly bothered about the affect she was having on you.

You could try offering an olive branch to her if you feel you are able. Tell her you are more comfortable now with your adjustments and would hope things can now move on.  It has to be a two-way thing, it is no good you getting the flack  and also trying to put an effort into the professional relationship.

I know how difficult that would be.  But you do have to work together, so she should also put a professional approach in and let byegones be byegones, starting afresh and respecting the fact that you are autistic which doesn't mean you are incapable of doing things on your own, in fact it can help tremendously for you to be able to work things out for yourself.

Yes!  I can't stand micromanagement, especially when there's no help with actual work or when you've asked for work help but not got it, and then someone tries to micromanage something just for the sake of it.  I believe a good manager should let you do things your way, as long as the work gets done.  You've believed employed for a reason and there should be some trust and mutual respect. 

Your experience and comments sound so similar to mine.  I'm glad you've kept your job and can work in your own way!

I feel my current line manager doesn't have the skills to be a manager, I've had no training and get no help when I ask, yet they want to micromanage silly things.  I asked about adjustments because I was struggling with the environment and was told no.  So for months I've struggled, felt trapped, like sitting in a school detention every day, and eventually went off sick.  What you say about lack of control is spot on I think.  I had no control over anything, with my line manager having control over their office and how everyone else had to behave and work.  Now I've been given reasonable adjustments-moved desks, headphones, reporting to someone else.  But everytime they try and get us to talk to each other about rebuilding a work relationship I just shutdown again.  I was told my line manager goes home in tears, and is so hurt to see that I talk to other people but wont talk to her.  So now I feel really bad because I don't mean to do that to people.  

I'm wondering the same as you, whether things would be different starting a new job knowing and trying to work through things earlier.  

And yeah I feel trust is very important and once its broken down its so hard to rebuild it.  Do you find that once you have an issue like that when you've lost that trust and relationship that you really struggle to take basic instruction from that person?  Then get annoyed because things are that bad?

Much of this post could be about me!

The problem in my case was caused by micromanagement and a line manager who thought her purpose was to 'order people about' rather than get the best out of them.

A good manager should allow people to work to their strengths and capabilities, not to their weaknesses.  Many years ago I had a manager who told me that a good manager was one who you didn't know was there, who allowed people freedom to do work in their own way as long as it gave the desired result (and obviously didn't involve dishonesty or bullying).  And I thought at the time this was only a way of a manager being able to go off playing golf instead of performing his duties.  But as time passed and with some awful managers since, I realise how true his comments were.

A good employer will have selected the candidate for the job and will then be able to trust the employee.  Lack of trust shows lack of ability and lack of confidence in their choice.  A manager should be there for someone to get guidance from but not be on your back all the time.

My problems really came to a head with a Tupe and a change of my job role.  It led to five months off sick with depression, my autism diagnosis, a change of manager, and ultimately an application to the employment tribunal and a sum of money (I have kept my job, and now am allowed to work in my own way).

Micromanagement, belittling someone, setting someone up to fail, overburdening them with unsuitable work, micromanagement, are all traits of bullying.  And this added to failure to listen leads to a breakdown in communication and a fear of the manager.  I had great problems with communicating with my line manager, and a feeling of real fear as she just would not listen and anything I said would be ignored or used against me in some sort of 'performance' issue.  I don't know what the school is where they are taught to act like this, suffice it to say that many managers behave in this way amongst other managers which are fair and treat people with respect.

The result of bad management is stress, anxiety and depression, mental illness and absence.  And as autistics we are particularly prone to these conditions.  I always believe it is lack of control that makes one stressed and gives anxiety, the thought of turning up to work becomes onerous and eventually one's opinion of oneself becomes overwhelmingly bad.  It then rubs salt into the wound to have the manager saying they are 'trying to help' and have your best interests at heart.

It has taken a long time to get my situation turned round and it was a hard struggle but now I feel at least that I can turn up for work and not be criticised for everything I do.  And by taking things to a nearly satisfactory conclusion under employment law has I hope made them think twice before they pull the same stunt again.

I know exactly what you mean - it is so disappointing and exhausting having to keep moving on when there is nothing wrong with the job itself. I realise there are social rules I could re-learn and apply to help me fit in, but I did that for many years and it made me feel dishonest and damaged my sense of self. 

The managers I got on with were decent, hardworking people with clear boundaries, and like you I have kept in touch with a couple of them. 

I wonder if it would be different starting a new job knowing I am autistic? I only got diagnosed recently so this would be a new experience for me. I might find it easier if potentially tricky issues are discussed at the outset, rather than waiting until they crop up. 

I am supposed to be working on a career passport, but not getting on very well. Probably because too much damage has been done, and I feel panicky about working with my manager again. Trust is massively important to me and it is really hard for me to get it back once it has gone

I am going to ask Access to Work for a job coach and for ASD training for my colleagues and managers. I had some coaching years ago and found it quite helpful even though I ended up leaving that job too! So much depends on the employer being willing to make adjustments - and managers being able to adapt their management style. 

Thanks for the reply.

definitely feel the same in that if a line manager behaves badly or incompetently in a bullying way I can’t just let it go like others seem to.  

People have always said to me to ‘play the game.’  But I just either don’t get this game, or I just can’t play it.  I’m really bad at lying, but I really struggle to communicate or discuss ‘feelings’ especially when uncomfortable, or if someone’s prying.  So I just go mute.  When asked the other day if I could just come in and smile and ask my line manager if they’d had a good weekend, I couldn’t lie and say I could do it.  

I wish I could play this game, and stop having these relationship breakdowns and having to leave jobs that I could do and would enjoy.  

Yes, I have experienced similar problems. One of my current managers wants to tell me all about her family, and discuss relationship problems she is having - for me this is deeply uncomfortable. With hindsight I can see how she may have perceived my reaction to her attempts to be friends as a rejection. others in the team are Facebook friends with her, this does not feel appropriate to me. 

I have got on well with managers where there were clear boundaries in our relationship. I also need to respect my manager's behaviour and competence. If they behave badly, make poor decisions and are disrespectful or bullying I can't ignore it and get on with my job like colleagues can. 

It is a real problem as relatively few managers seem to have the appropriate training, knowledge and skills to manage NT people, let alone autistic people. Senior managers discussing line managers who are acknowledged to have poor management skills say things like: "She'll never change, that's just the way she is". I find this utterly mystifying. 

Not sure what the answer is. Self employment probably, but that isn't feasible for everyone. I think managers need more training and 360 degree appraisal and exit interviews should be standard. At the moment life is very difficult indeed if you are perceived to be different in some way and you can't bring yourself to be social with your manager. This should not count against us but it often does.