Cassandro in knots: sleep, procrastination, life purpose etc

The most I can hope for is to go down fighting. Unfortunately, I don't have the energy.

I'd like to update this thread two years on. There were a lot of thoughtful, helpful responses on it and some suggestions I hadn't tried. It seems I had a mentor back then (now paid for through Access to Work, so thanks for that).

Now I have an additional diagnosis of ADHD, which is another thing to blame lack of 'productivity' or satisfaction on, but doesn't in itself define the problem well enough to work on. Am currently taking atomoxetine, and like someone said in the comments about melatonin, it's possibly having the reverse effect from what's intended in both immediate effects and after some weeks. I'm even more tired and even more distractible. My ability to discipline myself doesn't seem to be there. On the other hand maybe this is just a reverse placebo effect.

And distractibility I think may well be the key reason for executive function problems with 'initiation'. I am a procrastinator from lack of confidence, but the distractibility makes it so much worse, and so much harder to do the things on my to-do list. A change grabs my attention and I forget what I'd decided was important. I don't suppose anyone knows a decent free online test for distractibility?  I may have mentioned the target detection task that is a part of a lengthy suite at https://gbit.cognitron.co.uk/

An on the subject of sleep, I don't think it was the light. One of my guidelines did turn out to be wrong: 'if you wake after 6 am, accept you're not going to go back to sleep and get up'. In fact sleep between 6-8am seems to be quite valuable, as some 9-5 workers may know.

OK, time for a nap, and then to get back to what I should be doing. Thanks as always for listening.

Like with others on here, I get where you are coming from as I have had problems with sleep in the past as well and still ocassionally do. Maybe try wearing a blindfold or something to block out the sun? 

I also get where you are coming from with the “real-world relationship part” because before I went to uni I had no friends and only talked to people online on communities like this. What helped me become more confident with talking to people in the real world was I started by building up a good friendship with one person who I felt understood me and got on with me, and as the built my confidence I then gradually got more friends as I found it easier to make them due to that giving me more confidence. Maybe if you try to build a friendship with somebody who you consider understanding to build your confidence and then you can take it from there? 

Thanks again to people who replied. I can come back to this page in future. Sorry if the topic's wandering a bit, but then I don't really know what the problem or topic is.

Someone said I was definitely in a rut. Possibly reassuring. I'd thought I might have been in a rut inside another rut.

I suspect I'm slipping backwards, particularly in terms of activity. My work attendance has continued to be bad, and I'm not even tracking my absences. It may be that I need to move on from my job, although the demotivation is more pervasive than just work. I'm probably depressed, but it's showing up as a behavioural problem instead of a mood problem, possibly because of my own attitudes since the diagnosis. I can't see any point in going on. People have mentioned the 'satisfaction' of ticking something off a to-do list. I don't seem to experience that. I don't seem to get any positive feelings at all. That's the way my years-long depressions manifest. The hedonic treadmill would at least keep me trim, but I can't even see the carrot on the stick. (Or maybe I realise it is on a stick and trying to do stuff like sort out my paperwork is futile on a cosmic scale; thus I'd need to concentrate more on the short term.)

On executive dysfunction, which is a big thing for some autistic people and may be for me, here are a couple of resources I was sent:

• https://autismawarenesscentre.com/executive-function-what-is-it-and-how-do-we-support-it-in-those-with-autism-part-i/
• https://collectionsofamadaspie.wordpress.com/2015/05/14/neps-negotiatied-education-plans-what-are-they/ (see table)

The first link deliberately conceals anything it thinks are solutions, but links to Cynthia Kim's useful pages on executive function (EF). In trying to focus on what the problem is, it lists some categories:

• Planning - I can do, but need to know the goal.
• Problem solving - well maybe a problem at the stage of identifying the problem, but no one else seems to be able to identify it
  exactly either. Once I know what a problem is, I can usually fix it.
• Working memory - my 'prospective memory' (remembering to do things at the right time) isn't great. I expect my working memory is fine.
• Reasoning - pretty good here, I'd say.
• Attention 'directing that focus can be challenging'. Yes, that's an aspie thing. It may need someone else to prompt.
• Inhibition - to some extent, that's an ADHD problem.
• Initiation - yes, that's more like what I'm experiencing. 'Inertia' as previously mentioned.  'unless the activity is initiated by someone else it doesn’t happen. It has nothing to do with desire, or “want” – it is about lacking the function of “just doing it”' Could be.
• Flexibility OK. Sometimes I want to do things in the order of the plan, but am quite capable of modifying and adapting it a bit in response to circumstances.
• Monitoring - rather than the example given, it's monitoring against a plan that's a problem. Just not motivated to even think about the plan.

In practice, executive function is a slippery concept. Sometimes it looks like responsibility. Sometimes it looks like self-discipline. Sometimes it looks like being a competent adult.

Well, what if I'm not a responsible, disciplined adult? What if it really is a motivation problem after all? Can anyone help with that?

So, yes, I've not been pushing myself recently, not to do things that are probably pointless. From what I'd written before... I was going to stop doing stuff just for the sake of something to do, and see if real motivation emerged; and also let myself ruminate a bit for a change.

I'd started a poll on 'has thinking of yourself as autistic changed your social behaviour?' and it seemed most people are letting themselves react in a natural way as a result of a diagnosis. Well, I'm thinking of myself as being alexithymic and having 'an EF problem', so am letting myself go in that respect. Even if it's bad, it may bring the problem more into focus. I'd like someone to explain my problem to me as if it were a medical thing and tell me how to cope with it.

Just don't know where the time is going, although spending time on the web isn't helping. If there are no goals, there are no milestones. I have told my mentor I wanted more support. In which case I suppose it's right that I should approach the GP. I just have no hope that there is anything useful there, no adult autism services I'm pretty sure. A diagnosis of autism seems to me to just be an admission that psychiatry can't help. Maybe that's depressive thinking in itself. Autism-tailored CBT and/or melatonin just might help push the things that are outside my direct control?

Good. Thank you for the apology. Note that many copies will have been deleted by moderators already, and you will not be able to delete those posts that have already been replied to.

I think the main causes of annoyance and offence has been the high volume, >20 posts; the fact they were inappropriate to the conversations; and that it prevented us finding current conversations, and latest genuine comments within those conversations. I wouldn't personally have minded if one single thread had been started about the research, since otherwise it is from a reputable university. There is also though the issue that is more a matter for NAS:

8. Requests for research study subjects and surveys need to be directed
to research@nas.org.uk for data protection and research ethics reasons.
Further information can be found on our research pages. Please be
advised that any requests for research subjects or surveys posted on the
Community will be deleted without warning.

I am very sorry. I am going to delete this.

I'll tell you what I think about objects. I like some and I don't like others. 

(I did not see this here until after I had said a similar thing upon Martian Tom's Thread!  So we are calling this stuff "Research Spam", okay, I got it. But I might sign off now, it is getting late. Thanks Cassandro.)

NAS38247 said:

PERSONIFICATION RESEARCH PROJECT

 

Hi,

 

I am currently conducting my dissertation research project. I am investigating how autistic people think about objects.

Nooo. It's research spam!

Carolina, don't do this, it's rude. Check with NAS and then start your own thread.

This post has been removed as it contravenes our community rules.

Ayshe Mod

. said:

You come across as very goal centric and seem to rate achievement and thereby success  in that way. Who is writing the success criteria? You, or an NT society?

OK, this is a key question and prompts much thought. I'm kind of the opposite of goal-centric in my behaviour, but yes, I do want the right outcome for me and everything else. (It's that INTP description again.)

I have learned acceptance, I did have daydreamy ambitions as a kid, and I still want to make a difference, even though doing a bit beautifying gardens is also something I can be sort of content with. But  given some of my self-taught skills, people may think I choose to sit on my a*** all day.  My 'success' in life (still living like a student in middle age) is some evidence of neurodivergence to me, and as such I can accept it more. Religions often say not to be too attached to worldly goods, and I'm not sure I could be if I tried. Is an NT society writing the success criteria? Yes, and I question that, but in an Aspie utopia would no one work or have a relationship?

I may come back to what I really want... no time now.

I've had that behaviour at times in the past, particularly when younger and depressed. Sleeping in the day, so sleeping at night is disturbed. I don't think it's the situation at the moment – surely a few seconds of sleep at the desk in the evening can't add up to much.

Yes, physical activity may help: I had at least three hours' exercise yesterday (running and cycling), and managed to get 6 hours' sleep last night (in cool air and with an eye mask), which feels like a success, but I feel like I still need to catch up sleep from the past ten years. (There is some evidence that 'core' sleep deficits that are 'carried forward' are relatively small, so the explanation could be depression instead.)

I think my problem is more going to bed late. The main causes for my headache I think are lack of sleep and possibly too much sugar or some other dietary intolerance. I can be so tired that my headache is so bad that that prevents getting off. That's rare though. I tend to find the later I go to bed, the more disturbed my sleep and the earlier I wake. I'll try to aim for a little earlier.

Do you think it might be a cycle of poor quality sleep and being drowsy during the day and then because of drowsiness during the day you're back to not being tired enough to sleep at night? I sometimes go through this.

I think a good way to want to sleep and go to sleep easily at night is to exhaust yourself during the day, for just one day. Drowsiness during the day is like having many microsleeps during the day, and you don't burn off enough energy, so you're still not tried at night. If it is possible to have a full day of doing something energy consuming, like socializing, or travelling, or exercising, as I am usually really tired after these activities. Or maybe even having a really full day of work without any drowsiness, e.g., from 7am to 10pm. It usually works for me only after one or two days of mentally exhausting myself during the day. It might take longer if you have been in this cycle for a while. Don't know if it will help you, but this is my experience.

Sleep is a bummer. Recently I did something I had planned to swear off, but it is summer and everyone is on holiday and I needed the work.......two days of split shifts, that is early start and then an afternoon lesson, commuting to. Sometimes with an early start I hardly sleep at all and I read that lack of sleep can raise the risk of Alzheimer's cancer and heart disease, stroke. 

But even with no early starts, I often wake up at 3 in the morning, or earlier, and can't get back to sleep, so it's still death warmed up and misery the next day. I take a herbal preparation of catnip and other such things, though it often seems to be not strong enough. And more recently melatonin and it cost a bomb. 

So more ideas for better sleep are welcome.

Cassandro I suspect everything looks better, with better sleep.

Now, to put another monkey wrench in which goes against your brain wiring.. are you able to seperate and simplify what you are wanting to achieve? The image you post is very telling re your brain wiring in that I perceive it as the view that everything connects to everything else so you have the burden of carrying a “whole” mass of brain at all times and are unable to disconnect one thing from another easily to examine each thing as a separate entity in its own right.

synapsing always firing...a pulsating cortex..working and at risk of burning itself out.

just for fun...

“But—let me tell you my cat joke. It's very short and simple. A hostess is giving a dinner party and she's got a lovely five-pound T-bone steak sitting on the sideboard in the kitchen waiting to be cooked while she chats with the guests in the living room—has a few drinks and whatnot. But then she excuses herself to go into the kitchen to cook the steak—and it's gone. And there's the family cat, in the corner, sedately washing it's face."

"The cat got the steak," Barney said.

"Did it? The guests are called in; they argue about it. The steak is gone, all five pounds of it; there sits the cat, looking well-fed and cheerful. "Weigh the cat," someone says. They've had a few drinks; it looks like a good idea. So they go into the bathroom and weigh the cat on the scales. It reads exactly five pounds. They all perceive this reading and a guest says, "okay, that's it. There's the steak." They're satisfied that they know what happened, now; they've got empirical proof. Then a qualm comes to one of them and he says, puzzled, "But where's the cat?”
― Philip K. ***, The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch

“When INTPs are particularly excited, the conversation can border on incoherence as they try to explain the daisy-chain of logical conclusions that led to the formation of their latest idea. Oftentimes, INTPs will opt to simply move on from a topic before it’s ever understood what they were trying to say, rather than try to lay things out in plain terms.

The reverse can also be true when people explain their thought processes to INTPs in terms of subjectivity and feeling. Imagine an immensely complicated clockwork, taking in every fact and idea possible, processing them with a heavy dose of creative reasoning and returning the most logically sound results available – this is how the INTP mind works, and this type has little tolerance for an emotional monkey-wrench jamming their machines.”

Hope I’m not coming across as an “emotional monkey wrench”... more a humanistic elephantine claw hammer..

You come across as very goal centric and seem to rate achievement and thereby success  in that way. Who is writing the success criteria? You, or an NT society?

“So what is the slump about? It seems to be the effect partly of natural changes in our values. We begin adulthood, in our 20s and 30s, ambitious and competitive, eager to put points on the scoreboard and accumulate social capital. In late adulthood, after midlife, we shift our priorities away from ambition and towards deepening our connection with the people and activities that matter most to us. In between, we often experience a grinding transition when the old values haven’t brought the satisfaction we expected, but the new values haven’t yet established themselves.

Surely, if we are lucky enough to have put lots of points on the board by 40, achieving or surpassing our goals, malaise won’t strike? Wrong again. The most perverse effect of midlife malaise is that high-achievers are especially vulnerable. The reason is what researchers call the hedonic treadmill. To motivate us, youthful ambition makes us unrealistically optimistic about how much satisfaction success will bring. Later, when we meet a goal, our desire for status and success moves the goalposts. Despite our objective accomplishments, we are not as satisfied as we expected. We wonder, “How come I’m not happier?” As this cycle of achievement and disappointment repeats over time, satisfaction comes to seem forever out of reach.”

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2018/jul/21/midlife-crisis-myth-life-gets-better-after-50

does that make any sense? 

Thanks, Lonewarrior,, fellow autistic INTP.. No need to attempt  a reply as long as my original post.

I think there were some similarities with Graham's early morning state of mind, but in both cases being on the laptop at 4am may have been part of the problem.

The real world doesn't come in the same order as things in one's head.

I did try writing down what popped into my head with my eyes closed as a kind of alpha-wave diary (I think Ellie suggested), but it could probably produce pages of random stuff per hour, like some entirely invented interview with a generic scriptwriter about how they cope with casting changes (not a metaphor, just a random example).

I need to get some kind of determination and real-world order from somewhere. There are things I should do. This forum is rather a distraction. It would be good to feel things were going to some kind of plan, if only on a short to medium term. No one's ever really helped me with long-term plans, and that may be why my life has gone nowhere as regards careers or relationships.

BTW for BlueRay 'I should like everybody' is less of a rule, than an impersonal way of seeing the world. I think it is, anyway.

Anyway, thanks everyone for the replies, and I am processing this all slowly.

Morning all !

I had not read this post as the words seemed to much for me to digest and theorise on.

Having read all the replies I would like to say “YES” I experience a lot of the difficulties in accepting I need to sleep.

I have never actually seen why I should get ready for bed and climb into bed lay back and tell my brain to stop! My brain doesn’t just stop on demand, I lie awake with my head spinning, flitting from one subject to another, add anxiety to the mix of how will I cope the next day and I am more tense and unrelated than when going about my business during the day.

running out of words now, Cassandro you put into words what I experience all my life. I sleep when my body can no longer keep going, I crash, then no amount of shaking or shouting will wake me,

The INTP-T part struck a bell as I only did the character test yesterday.

As you can tell I am still struggling in my head, short sentences of dialogue but sudden switching to some other relevant point I feel suddenly comes to mind, as with your other thread my finger pauses each time I go to tap in a word as there are many,,,too many things trying to get onto the page,, all the things I want to say to each reply that mean something to me, I am spouting mixed thoughts as best I can , overwhelmed by to much information, to many theories bouncing off the sides of my skull, argh sums it up very well I think.!

Must stop I have lost ability to go back,, delete,,rethink, re order,, sort,, and make this into a half readable item, 

This is raw me struggling, I fear failure and strive for perfection in all things in my life, I try even find myself trying to compete with all of you! In that I see your amazing abilities to explain using words and quoting various knowledgeable people. I am a basic model who has spikes of articulation but more often it seems I struggle just to put a sentence together that actually is readable.

I must stop!!! No more ability to formulate my words, a mess of jumbled words, mixed, confused, 

sorry cassandro it was Graham who started the post I referred to as (“with your other thread my finger pauses each time I go to tap in a word as there are many,”)

Life purpose? 

(Aside from your self disclosed desire for perfection)... now, as an Aspie, life purpose is almost a thread in its own right!)

I have suffered or benefitted from insomnia most of my life, with the former or latter categorisation being dependent on whether I actually wanted to stay awake all night at the time.

I have read quite a lot about the whole 'Sleep Hygiene' theory (No TV in bedroom, go to bed at the same time & don't read etc), & whilst I can happily accept that it works for most people, it does nothing for me. Like many people here, my insomnia is linked to my brain not wanting to slow down & when that happens I just stay up longer & try again later, as attempts to force myself to fall asleep just seem to make me irritable & often result in not sleeping at all.

I was interested that you mentioned Melatonin not being available in the UK, as I have also tried that following a trip to the USA about ten years ago. I actually bought a generous supply of it, in the hopes that it would allow me to sleep on those nights when I knew I needed to get up early the next day, but my brain wouldn't co-operate. Sadly it only seemed to make the problem worse, i.e. it made me feel wide awake & irritable. I even tried using higher doses than recommended on the bottle, but that didn't work either.

Not sure why everything about my head seems to be reversed, but since I also have 'Reverse SAD' (Summer makes me depressed, Winter makes me happy), maybe it's something to do with that.

Can't say that I am a big fan of lists either, but I know lots of people swear by them. I usually try to do several things at once rather than one at a time.

A very long time ago, my manager at a software company asked me how I approached doing a jigsaw, he "sorted out all the edges first & then methodically worked toward the centre". When I told him that I quite often "put the edges on last, as I prefer creating multiple clusters of pieces that look interesting & then gradually expand them until they merge together", he was genuinely horrified, which made me laugh.