Toronto atrocity and 'involuntary celibacy'

Three more relevant articles, none actually mentioning autism, to general relief. These do however take a wider view of alienation and sex. I think the point that someone committing a crime like this tragically suggests how many more people are alienated and bear such bitterness, is valid. As with other instances of talking to terrorists, the act itself is not helpful to understanding, but the fact the suspect was captured alive and the subsequent process may be.

From a feminist angle we have Rola Kamaleddine in HuffPost:

there is something spine tingling bubbling behind the scenes which his attack has undoubtedly shed light on. Women are still not safe. Women are still not equal. ... Women are tired of owing just for existing.

In the process of trying to be inclusive, there's what seems to be a contradiction:

Let me clarify—I don’t think anyone should be denied the joys of companionship and the perks that come along with it. I sympathise with those who feel like they are not good enough or worthy of love, and I am here to tell you that you are. I’m sorry for every human who has bullied your confidence or self-worth down to the point where you believe there is something wrong with you. Every single person deserves someone who truly loves them as they are and wants to share the beauty of life with them. We all want to love and be loved. However, it is important to understand that this isn’t an entitlement—it’s earned. You earn love, sex, relationships and companionships by being a decent, kind and loving human being, and maybe with a little sprinkle of luck from Mother Nature, that you cross paths with the right person. You have to be deserving to truly earn someone’s love, and wishing women dead because you feel entitled isn’t how you earn it. We don’t feel sorry for your sense of entitlement.

The point is omitted that bullying is not the only reason people may feel they will never find love; also omitted are women who cannot find suitable men.

I find the distinction between deserves someone and entitlement a bit confusing. I'm not sure either word is helpful. Maybe we deserve respect, but not affection. We don't deserve, nor are entitled to, having a specific desire reciprocated.  But the contrast is with a society that tries to meet people's romantic needs somehow, regardless of their sexuality.

This links to other recent discussion from a different perspective of a 'right to sex' (in the sense of human right), prompted mostly by a right-wing economist. The best about this is the New York Times referring to commodification of sex:

Sometimes the extremists and radicals and weirdos see the world more clearly than the respectable and moderate and sane. ...Robin Hanson, a George Mason economist, libertarian and noted brilliant weirdo. Commenting on the recent terrorist violence in Toronto, in which a self-identified “incel” — that is, involuntary celibate — man sought retribution against women and society for denying him the fornication he felt that he deserved, Hanson offered this provocation: If we are concerned about the just distribution of property and money, why do we assume that the desire for some sort of sexual redistribution is inherently ridiculous? ...  as offensive or utopian the redistribution of sex might sound, the idea is entirely responsive to the logic of late-modern sexual life

Finally, this in the Indie also feels free to roam philosophically over the abstracts, and unfortunately implies that Minassian is representative of 'incels'. It again refers to sex as commodity, but also as a social good for harmony:

Involuntary celibacy is only one manifestation of our voluntary enslavement to the reign of the virtual.

Which is a contrasting conclusion to the NYT article talking about sex robots. I haven't seen much relating the violence to economic inequality and social inequality.  Nor to social disabilities.  Nor providing what I'd consider realistic solutions. Maybe it was just a freak event anyway that you can't draw conclusions from.  Maybe these immediate reactions could have instead drawn on what George Monbiot has been saying about loneliness.  There's nothing unique about autistic people's loneliness, but we are more vulnerable to its extremes, almost by definition.

Now here's an academic partly appealing to the media to be sensitive:

https://theconversation.com/toronto-attack-autism-does-not-increase-risk-of-violence-95636

I'm not sure mention of the mythical 'lack of empathy' is helpful, even though it's glossed over. It isn't in Allely's list of risk factors for good reason.

Maybe hoping for a sophisticated and realistic media narrative is unrealistic.  I've also seen articles pointing out such violence is usually by young males, which is fair enough but obvious: some would claim it is a biological fact true across societies (who is recruited to armies?)  Autism as such is associated with lower violence.  However, there may be an indirect link between ostracism, social isolation and poor support and dwelling on violent ideas.  Or is all speculation unhelpful?

Indeed. I was briefly in r/incel then realised just how dodgy it was and left before the sub was banned.

That's the group I'm particularly thinking of, yes, and one reason why inclusion is so important. Alana (further profile here) said it would include those lacking social skills, but also other reasons such as, just one example, people attracted only to horses.  However, the identity has recently come to embody bitterness and worse (this bonkers 'blackpill' thing). Alana says:

Members of the site spanned all ages and sexual orientations, contrasting sharply with what the so-called movement would one day become. “There were some people who were kind of socially clueless, some people who needed a bit of education and some people who had the attitude that women are objects,” she said. “It was not virulent hatred, it was just ignorance and objectification. There was nothing like the hostility, hatred and misogyny that is happening now.

There are various reasons for inadequate social skills. You might be born with less of a clue and need more education than most, or you may have grown up isolated, or abused, or in a different culture or in a very submissive position. Or you may have adopted a genuinely bad attitude, like the first definition in the urbandictionary that is the first Google hit for 'incel' (definitions 3 & 6 seem more straightforward and less politicised). We may be talking about a subset of social skills here: for instance, I would say my skills in mediation and conflict resolution are above average, and I have been described as charming and a good conversationalist... but if it's about me and you and potentially love, less so.  Not enough confidence, too much pain, try not to run away completely, awkward coping mechanisms. You can invent psychoanalytic reasons for this involving trauma, but seeing it as lack of positive experience has been much more helpful for me, even though since my diagnosis I realise I am unlikely to ever catch up with people who seem to be born with the right scripts.

I recall I'd previously been attracted by the 'incel' description ('late bloomer' too, maybe, and 'love shy' is OK), but when I checked online forums, I was put off by some of the comments and attitude. It had probably already become unhelpful. It's not a 'movement', it's a predicament, and one that like others takes either persistent courage or acceptance to escape from.  And a lot of people are probably unhappy for all kinds of reasons, get told by well-meaning people that they need a partner, but have no idea how to form a relationship or approach someone they might like. I have spent about a fifth of my adult life in relationships, but depression has often felt like the biggest barrier when I've not wanted to be alone.  Not taking care over personal appearance may have been a factor, but worries about work and property and mental health status probably contribute more. We don't need 'pick-up artist' material, but some instruction in the basics that most people seem to know could help. 'Just be yourself' is good advice for many, but for me that means being somewhere else.

There's nothing wrong with either Tinder or masturbation.

Back to my comment about 'incel' 

My conclusion is that refers to someone having inadequate social skills to find a sexual partner.  

I'm still following the media coverage on this intermittently. There seems to be little emphasis on Minassian's mental health, probably expecting that to come out in court. There's more on 'incel' and violence against women, and some on autism. Here are two of the former, and one on the latter:

https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/25/17279294/toronto-massacre-minassian-incels-internet-misogyny - a commentary bringing in sexism of mainstream society, and the idea that some men supposedly feel entitled to women's bodies, into the picture, possibly unhelpfully. Any recommendations aren't clear: it seems to be attacking '"free speech"' (in quotation marks) on the internet, but then concludes more that the problem is 'saying nothing' . I'd say it's more the latter. Possibly 'major internet platforms' (and minor ones too) could employ or give access to moderators with mental health training who could contribute?

More specifically about the violent aspects of incel culture: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/incels-alek-minassian-mra-mens-rights-terrorism-toronto-van-attack-a8323166.html

And this is not bad about the dangers of media coverage, again emphasising there is no link with violence: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/04/26/were-not-a-violent-group-of-people-ex-classmate-of-alek-minassian-speaks-out-about-autism.html  Kyle Echakowitz seems like a good autistic advocate.

So it looks like the narrative that dominates may be one of autistic people being open to 'grooming' by those with violent ideas, with alienation a secondary theme. Would it be wrong to highlight the alienation more, since it affects many more people than reach the headlines?

A very insightful article in Elle.  I can identify with Alana in several ways.  I will not elaborate any further.

Elle magazine has the two most perceptive articles I've read on 'incel' and love shyness from 2016:

much of what he calls "love-shyness"—trouble reading signs, stubborn obsessions—sounds like Asperger's (the official name of which is now autism spectrum disorder). In fact, in later years Gilmartin estimated that at least 40 percent of love-shy men, himself included, had Asperger's.

https://www.elle.com/life-love/sex-relationships/a33782/involuntary-celibacy/

The other interesting stats in that article suggest that actually there are a very similar number of women who have no sex lives and have pretty similar feelings about it - rather like we're learning about autism.  It also seems the term 'involuntarily celibate' was coined by a woman:

https://www.elle.com/culture/news/amp34512/woman-who-started-incel-movement/

The misinterpretation that it is mostly a male situation, maybe from some oversimplified evolutionary psychology, might be the next stepping stone to the frustration taking on a misogynistic character.  The young man Minassian mentioned and may have been unduly influenced by, Elliot Rodger, who murdered six people in 2016, has been called a narcissist, not autistic, and apparently had come to believe that a $300 pair of designer sunglasses should help him be irresistible to women.

And money for sex workers... well, I've heard of volunteer schemes for disabled people, at least in other European countries.  The Outsiders Club may know about such things.

Further to my previous comment.

Imagine if you will, you are at uni. Away from home, possibly struggling. Desperate for acceptance, desperate for friendship (read some of the other threads here, it is a theme)

Upset by the lack of help, teachers ,finance, housing, goodness in the world. Someone comes along and starts talking to you, they understand about your problem, you see them again a few days later and the day after that. You start studying with them once a week, you have a friend. You are happy. A month later they say they are meeting a couple of other friends that feel strongly about the cuts just like you do. They come back and talk about it all fired upup and you agree to go along tomorrow,  you go, it's scary new people, but there are only 3 of them so you cope and they feel the same as you. you have 4 friends now. 2 week later there is going to be a demo, your 4 friends decide (and of course these people are your friends and you want them to stay your friends) that it would serve the council right if you did something to show them the night before the demo. It's agreed, you will chuck paint all over the front of the building. So you do.... Now imagine it's a bomb!   How did you get there

Cassandro said:

The idea of making autistic people do something against their own code seems implausible to me. 

I am only posting to say that as someone who is autistic and has been groomed by people taking advantage of my autism that it is very possible to make someone believe what you believe if you can find even a tiny crumb to feed and grow especially if you are prepared to put the time in to reach your end goal.

Cassandro said:

God, how we feel remorse and concern - it's more getting over those to action that's the problem.  But if an autistic person is going to become violent, what's most likely to provoke them?  Not a need to dominate, but uncontrolled pain and perceived injustice.

I agree entirely.

Thanks for the reply, and the article - which was good, although of course very medicalising.  It was a shame there was any confusion to clear up in the first place, which again seems to be because of misunderstanding 'empathy'.

God, how we feel remorse and concern - it's more getting over those to action that's the problem.  But if an autistic person is going to become violent, what's most likely to provoke them?  Not a need to dominate, but uncontrolled pain and perceived injustice.

The traits I saw shared were quite general and I wouldn’t have jumped to ASD, but I could see how it could be confused by some people, particularly in childhood. For example, those psychopaths I knew didn’t show emotional responses as you would expect, they had behaviour problems in school, they struggled to maintain relationships with others, they could want to control situations (in the same way someone with ASD does in order to reduce anxiety), they came across as peculiar or quirky, their behaviour could be very impulsive etc. 

Here’s an interesting article that is quite relevant:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/shadow-boxing/201402/aspergers-disorder-vs-psychopathy

DragonCat16 said:

Every time some nutcase has committed some kind of mass murder recently, whether by shooting, or whatever other means (in this case with a vehicle), the media has gone for the autism angle.

Not every, I'm sure.  People with psychosis have suffered similar unjustified media vilification in the past.

DragonCat16 said:

Just because someone is socially awkward or not sociable does not necessarily mean they are autistic

Agreed. 

In MInassian's case, it now seems very likely he (or possibly a brother) had a pre-existing autism diagnosis, and also a lack of support for it:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/04/24/autism-not-associated-with-violence-advocates-say.html

I'm linking to that article in particular, because it's relatively good journalism, emphasising the debunking of the possible myth by putting it in early:

Reports the man connected to Monday's van rampage  on Yonge St. may suffer from Asperger syndrome, have shaken advocates in Ontario’s autism community... violent behaviour is not typically associated with the disorder

(albeit rather weakly, and using the loaded word 'disorder'). I hope anyone reading would realise that despite a few individual cases, no association (or probably a negative association) with violence would mean they shouldn't fear or discriminate against autistic people. On the other hand, maybe people aren't clever enough to understand risk, and mud can stick, so we need to be careful.

DragonCat16 said:

Just because a guy can't get any doesn't mean he is on the spectrum. Maybe he just needs to shower more.

Could be.  But some men who as the Globe and Mail puts it 'suffer from a social disability' may be frustrated and confused regardless of their physical presentation - and maybe even take internet comments too seriously.  It's just one possible factor, not a complete explanation, and of course in no way any excuse for these awful killings.

I wasn't confused as such, just trying to clarify.  I've met many, many people with mental health problems, but never anyone diagnosed as a 'psychopath' (even if that word itself confusingly translates as 'mentally ill').  I wonder what traits they shared with autism/ASC.  As you say, the stereotypical psychopath (which I only know from fiction) is often socially adept ('good at pretending they care').

Yes, indeed, many people can't understand why violent crimes are committed (and therefore fall back on anything from some diagnosis to demonic possession), but the vast majority (>90%) are carried out by people with no mental health diagnosis, because of intense emotion, because they have something to gain and/or it is legitimated by people around them.  There are many violent acts carried out by armies and so on, where being mentally ill is actually supposedly a barrier to involvement (unless perhaps you're a general).

Cassandro said:

I never mentioned empathy

That was only in my post because it was a copy of what I posted in another thread, sorry if I confused you there...

I don’t know much about psychopathy myself, but I know people who are diagnosed as psychopaths and they do share some traits of ASD. I didn’t mean to associate mental health problems and violent crime, after all I myself have mental health problems, what I meant was that in order to commit such crimes I feel as though you must be mentally disturbed in some way. Otherwise, I just can’t comprehend such acts. Maybe you can be completely sane and commit such acts - I just don’t understand how that could be because I could never do that.

Right, I'd hope we could forestall the potential misunderstanding, generalisation and prejudice, and by speculating I didn't mean to feed it.  I'm not really sure to what extent 'psychopathy' exists, but certainly there are mental health diagnoses that only get made after the event as part of the forensic process, and that inflates the small number of serious crimes supposedly involving mental health problems.  The same will probably be true of autism.

I never mentioned empathy, and association of (lack of) empathy with autism is really a myth begun unintentionally by Simon Baron-Cohen.  Several people have told me I couldn't be autistic because I'm a very good listener and gentle and caring and emotionally literate.  I think that's true of most autistic people - they can be deeply affected by another's feelings, particularly not filtering out pain, even if they don't necessarily pick up nonverbal cues or social norms.  The fact I don't know how to react to my attraction to others is not something people would normally call a problem with empathy.

By the way though, empathy can be overcome easily and regularly is: Minassian recently had military training, and part of military training is suppressing empathy for the 'outgroup'.  Despite what I said about autistic people usually being true to their code, I see no reason to rely on empathy in autistics any more than allistics.

No, there is no general statistical association with violent crime, as I think one of the quotes above confirms - but there definitely is an association with suicide (approximately ten times the risk), and of course alienation. I've only just put 'incel' and 'autistic' together, and there is now an ideological (misogynist) component as well as an experiential one.

Yes, this is speculation on my part that Minassian is autistic, and the quotes above may have been selective on the journalists' part. 

Every time some nutcase has committed some kind of mass murder recently, whether by shooting, or whatever other means (in this case with a vehicle), the media has gone for the autism angle. Just because someone is socially awkward or not sociable does not necessarily mean they are autistic, and the fact that they have committed mass murder indicates a lack of conscience more appropriately diagnosed as psychopathy than autism. Whereas for us regular people on the spectrum, there are so many posts complaining about how difficult it is to get diagnosed, or even get a referral to be diagnosed, it seems as though nobody has any problem diagnosing mass murderers as being on the spectrum. Just because a guy can't get any doesn't mean he is on the spectrum. Maybe he just needs to shower more.

I’ve copied a reply of mine from another thread about misdiagnosis of ASD because I think it’s relevant here:

I don’t have personal experience of this, but when I was on an NAS course, the tutor mentioned that she knew of some individuals that had a diagnosis of ASD but definitely weren’t ASD. She thought their motivations for getting a diagnosis were to be able to claim benefits and get adjustments at work.

On the same course we discussed how psychopaths are sometimes misdiagnosed as ASD because many of the traits are similar/the same, and the diagnostic criteria misses the crucial difference, which is that people with ASD have loads of affective and compassionate empathy, but we lack cognitive empathy (and psychopaths are the other way round). In other words, people with ASD do care about others but struggle to express it, and psychopaths don’t care but are good at pretending they do. But we know there is a common misconception that those with ASD have no empathy. So I always wonder when you get violent crimes and the news emphasising that the person was autistic so this was probably why they didn’t care about those they hurt, if the person was actually ASD or in fact a psychopath (not that people with ASD can’t commit violent crimes, it just makes me wonder given the overlap in much of the traits).

I don’t personally think that being autistic gives you any sort of predisposition to being involved in violent crime, in fact I think to most of us the idea would be entirely horrifying, but like the rest of the population there are no doubt some people with ASD who commit such crimes. I then question, as with an NT who commits such crimes, if they are mentally ill or a psychopath. I wouldn’t just put it down to autism, I’d think there is something more going on.

Very Interesting reading and some new terms like 'incel' which I haven't come across before.

As for the comment that

'sex workers probably can do more to help boost self-acceptance than mental health staff.'.

There is the practical problem of money