Hans Asperger

Ugh!

The crime Hans Asperger is supposed to have committed is obeying Hitler by sending  disabled children to be murdered in a Clinic.  Hitler did not just murder Jews he murdered disabled people as well and Hans Asperger is supposed to have helped Hitler do that by sending profoundly disabled children to their death.  Even after the T5 programme stopped disabled people were still murdered under Hitler.

I  think no one is suggesting that people with Asperger Syndrome would have co-operated with the evil orders of the ***. as Asperger people can be disobedient.  Well people with Asperger Syndrome could cooperate and those who do not have Autism could cooperate with the ***.   Asperger people are not really Autistic but they have some of the traits of Autistic people.   Hans Asperger should have disobeyed the evil orders of sending disabled children to their death.  Really Hans Asperger should have emigrated to the USA before the war rather than carry on working under this evil system. I went to a talk in the Docklands area and the speaker was not sure whether Hans Asperger co-operated with the ***.  It is true if Hans Asperger had not carried out those evil orders he might have been arrested or killed himself.  I do hope they will drop the term ASPERGER SYNDROME.  May be call it Autistic traits instead.

Cloudy Mountains said:

You are saying the same things again and again but using semantics to repeat your opinion

I have been as you have here but only in the sense of 'writing' my opinion, being that words and sentences are linguistic architectures as being semantic structures, which are dialectic variations, or accents in the spoken regional sense, by way of conveying meaning according to individuality.

Cloudy Mountains said:

There is no need.

Of course not ~ when it comes to semantics being used in writing or speech in every way, and this is so regardless of if anybody needs or wants it or not.

If though you think there is no need for repeating opinions in different ways about the same thing, you are entirely mistaken in having done so. This was a need for you, and you needed to fulfil it. This is the nature of many discussions between individuals, as based upon everyone having different perspectives from different locations on the Earths surface, in each and every case.

Cloudy Mountains said:

You obviously don't have the same concerns over the implications of Czech's article and the damage it could do to a valuable member of the Autism research community. I do.

I respect and support the concrete facts of science and nature, and everyone experiencing and reporting them as such here and elsewhere therefore ~ whether it be Czech, Frith or whomever else ~ scientist or not. I do not take sides.

This for the benefit of all, and the detriment of no one :-)

I've only skimmed Czech's paper and read the conclusion, and then the commentary.  My verdict so far would be that it's looked at Asperger's writings in detail, but not found any strong unambiguous evidence of enthusiasm for Nazi ideology.  There's much conjecture still and 'scant direct evidence'.  I don't think NeuroTribes 'pushed the narrative of Asperger as an Oskar Schindler-like protector of children with autism' as Czech claimed, although the tendency to oversimplify and polarise is always there, and Silberman may revise his position, and even his book, a little.

Of course psychiatry was used as a tool of oppression by the state, as it was elsewhere, and people in junior roles or on the fringes of the party tried to justify themselves after the war, just as they condemned the sick atrocities their country had been involved in.  Steve Silberman may not have the historiographic credentials of Czech or have dug as deeply into files he didn't realise exist, but gave wider context  Given the worldwide enthusiasm for eugenics at the time, and industrial extermination of classes of human beings by the ***, condemning relatively few children to incarceration (fewer than Leo Kanner?) or possibly knowingly worse (I haven't found this in the paper), is awful but should be seen in proportion.  I recall a debate at the Maudsley concluding that psychiatry was 'irretrievably racist', and the tendency to classify and categorise people is much of what it does.  I worry that the Guardian is becoming more sensationalist since Rusbridger left.

I don't mostly identify as 'Aspie' myself (I'd prefer 'autistic' already), but suspect this will only slightly influence people I know who do.  Maybe there could be some backup term based on 'Frankl-Weiss' ('Franklie'?). 'Syndrome' was always a misnomer.

I'm saying that his research probably saved people down the line. Having an actual line of research and a label for the condition was probably the start of a lot of people not just being labelled an "imbecile" and thrown in an asylum. Especially the lower functioning. I can't condone his actions at the time. That's the paradox though.

Deepthought said:

Czech's paper balances a long standing argument, and science only provides evidence on the basis of it being the next clue, or set of clues ~ final and absolute answers are socio-political derivations.

Most academics are fully aware of what publish and be damned means, but as long as the application of the information is of a high standard, and involves the incrimination of no one, respect is often more as such earned than it is lost.

As for being an apologist for Asperger, Frith seems not to be so in relation to Czech's findings, so respect due there.

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The socio-political deriviations of Czech's paper are what I'm talking about Czech deliberately points out Frith. If you read my earlier post about the piece this is made plain.

Deepthought said:

I doubt it will make any real difference as autism is not a big thing on the socio-political front ~ regarding whom associated with whom seventy to eighty years ago, given that people are way more concerned with the therapeutic and support issues of the current day regarding autism itself. 

Your opinion is different to mine. Autism is a big socio-political issue. Research, care, treatment, and funding for all of these things are constantly an issue as many posters here will have experienced. Czech probably knew he would have gotten attention due to Autism being so prevelant in the media and public conciousness.

Deepthought said:

In not having directly followed or read any of Frith's work, I just did a little internet trawl concerning her Academic achievements ~ and I would suggest the closest she will ever get to no longer being or getting funded is if she decides to retire, for her own reasons. 

I have read Frith's work and followed her achievements. I'm just not comfortable with someone directly mentioning her and smearing her name. In the climate of today's academic circles Frith's reputation could be smeared.

You are saying the same things again and again but using semantics to repeat your opinion. There is no need. You obviously don't have the same concerns over the implications of Czech's article and the damage it could do to a valuable member of the Autism research community. I do.

You found a way to get *** to show! Kudos!

Titter!!!

Are you saying that perhaps his actions did save some people down the line, or that he could have done so, but didn't?

Cloudy Mountains said:

If Czech is trying to make out that Frith is an apologist for Asperger it could cause her image to be damaged within academia.

Czech's paper balances a long standing argument, and science only provides evidence on the basis of it being the next clue, or set of clues ~ final and absolute answers are socio-political derivations.

Most academics are fully aware of what publish and be damned means, but as long as the application of the information is of a high standard, and involves the incrimination of no one, respect is often more as such earned than it is lost.

As for being an apologist for Asperger, Frith seems not to be so in relation to Czech's findings, so respect due there.

Cloudy Mountains said:

Academia is funded by people that have to cater to public opinion or have an socio-political agenda.

I doubt it will make any real difference as autism is not a big thing on the socio-political front ~ regarding whom associated with whom seventy to eighty years ago, given that people are way more concerned with the therapeutic and support issues of the current day regarding autism itself. 

Cloudy Mountains said:

If Frith is de-funded or her position is put at risk it would logically affect current scientific research.

In not having directly followed or read any of Frith's work, I just did a little internet trawl concerning her Academic achievements ~ and I would suggest the closest she will ever get to no longer being or getting funded is if she decides to retire, for her own reasons. 

If Czech is trying to make out that Frith is an apologist for Asperger it could cause her image to be damaged within academia. Academia is funded by people that have to cater to public opinion or have an socio-political agenda. If Frith is de-funded or her position is put at risk it would logically affect current scientific research.

Cloudy Mountains said:

Yes, she says she used scant sources, just as was said in my post above. She also says what has been said about the whole affair in the original article.

Well as you stated, you were concerned about Czech's article affecting current research, which it will not scientifically, as the only real concern is a socio-political one ~ i.e, how people feel about the fascist associations of being diagnosed or identifying with having Asperger's Syndrome.

Churchill was not a humanitarian in any sense. I remember we had to write an essay on him at school and I mentioned that he was romanticised highly after the war. He sent the troops to basically occupy Tonypandy after a civil industrial dispute, his views on the disabled and his absolute incompetency in WW2 in the Africa conflict. He could have let Wavell attack Rommel when the allies had the upper hand. Instead he let the conflict continue for years. Churchill was ***, he did lead Britain to beat the Nazi's but his attitude to the general populace of his own country was terrible.

Lol, yeah Bowie was a man of many contradictions. He seemed to explore some very strange ideas and dark places but he seemed to come out a very rounded guy. I didn't know about his brother but that lyric does make sense. I was listening to Loving the Alien the other day and it was eerily prophetic. Spooky in fact!

BTW good to come across a Bowie fan!

Yes, she says she used scant sources, just as was said in my post above. She also says what has been said about the whole affair in the original article.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/apr/22/what-we-must-learn-from-asperger-expose

Sahil Singh Gujral
New York, USA

QUOTE: Throughout this period, American and British psychiatrists endorsed eugenicist ideologies and sometimes heinous acts. To list but a few examples: autism’s co-discoverer in America, Leo Kanner, supported sterilisation for the mentally disabled, while Foster Kennedy, chairman of the American Psychiatric Association, advocated a US euthanasia programme to be modelled upon the ***’. In England, Winston Churchill endorsed the Mental Deficiency Act 1913, mandating that all “imbeciles” be separated from society and involuntarily committed to labour camps, typically for the rest of their lives. Amid often awful squalor, many deteriorated and died. UNQUOTE

People seem to have forgotten just how troubled Europe was at the beginning of the 20th Century. I think we can still credit 'good' work from people, while also being aware that they are mere mortals like ourselves.

I've always wondered what Bowie might have been referring to in the song 'Quicksand', with the lyrics,"Living proof of Churchill's lies". Whilst having long realised that Churchill was a man of many contradictions, I would guess this lyric was partially inspired by Bowie's brother being in a psychiatric ward for many years. It's a theme that crops up a lot in his work. But Bowie was as much of a mass of contradictions as the rest of us.

I'm glad that Uta Frith has commented on this, and has also mentioned Lorna Wing at the same time.

Cloudy Mountains said:

Frith has done far more for Autistic people than Czech ever will. Frith has the potential to do more if she isn't dragged through the mud. My fears are already being confirmed! I just hope that this whole thing doesn't affect anything inside of current research!

Consider instead perhaps the following responses starting with Frith's to Czech's paper:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/apr/22/what-we-must-learn-from-asperger-expose

Or for those who cant or don't do links:

It has taken me a while to digest Herwig Czech’s deeply upsetting information about Hans Asperger (Revealed: how Doctor Asperger aided the Nazi project, 19 April).

When, in 1991, I translated Asperger’s seminal 1944 paper on “Autistic psychopathy in childhood”, none of this was known. Neither Lorna Wing, the instigator of the translation, nor I believed he was part of the Nazi machinery of death. My translation, footnotes and description of Asperger in the introductory chapter were based on scant sources: the paper itself, a few media sources (eg an interview he gave in the 1970s) and an interview with his daughter. As a clinical psychologist and academic, I thought highly of his clinical descriptions, which largely highlighted the positive aspects of what has become known as Asperger syndrome.

It is very saddening that he appears to have been a willing accomplice in the Nazi euthanasia programme. It seems certain now that he effectively signed the death warrants of children with severe brain damage, while at the same time providing educational therapy for the children in his clinic.

The term Asperger syndrome is not in the most recent diagnostic systems, for scientific reasons, but it will be up to the autism community to decide whether it should remain in use.

Uta Frith
Emeritus professor of cognitive development, UCL Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience

I actually think that however evil some of the things that went on in Asperger's institute, he could have actually saved some people a few decades down the line from horrors such as electric shock treatment and lobotomies. Unintentionally of course. Those were still popular way after the war. Having a condition to apply a process to could have saved a lot of people on the spectrum a lot of pain.

I'm not too easy with the idea of an obscure historian attacking Frith. He could have written the piece without attacking Frith. People could have formed their own opinion on Frith's book themselves. She is an important researcher.

It seems to be more frustrating if you are telling people about being on a farm bird-watching while eating steamed puddings. "I heard a *** crowing, then admired the blue *** and great ***. I began to pour custard on my spotted ***"