Hans Asperger

By your argument it would have been difficult to try the *** at Nuremburg who used the defence obeying orders as those on the allied side were not put in this position and many people in the air force obeyed orders to bomb civilians.    if you are a thief up before Court it would not be a defence to tell the Judge and Jury you were never in my position of being short of money.

David said:

No but people might ask you would you have obeyed orders as Hans Asperger did?

Well, as in reality you are asking me, my answer is that:

I did not grow up in the first half of the century.

I was not exposed to the socially shared and enforced sexism, ageism and tribalism (or altogether just elitism) that was going on in Austria in those days.

I did not have a wife and five children to support.

and, 

More simply ~ I was not, nor ever shall be in the same position as Hans Asperger, as I am not Hans Asperger, and this is the current era.

As the saying goes ~ "Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes." as means  be compassionate, rather than judgement involving generalised incrimination or defamation.

Personally, I think it reasonable for people to refer to their diagnostic classification as it is.

The first exception to this being if the diagnosis of the condition is not in symptomatic terms befitting.

The second exception, as applies in your case ~ on the basis of moral and ethical grounds in cultural or ethnic terms, is that HFA, ASC, ASD (or something along those lines) is more befitting for 'you' as an individual.

Does this make sense to you?

The contradiction is that in 1966 a Psychiatrist wanted me to go to an Autistic School and in 1976 a Psychiatrist said I was mildly Autistic. so they wanted to include me.  My Family and I did not accept I was on the spectrum until 1990 when it was explained to my Parents that I have Asperger Syndrome.  If we drop the term Asperger Syndrome it needs to be made clear that one can be on the Spectrum and still be high functioning but able to speak fluently. 

Yes, I think it's confusing that the meaning of 'autism' has changed, but it has.  In the 70s it implied non-verbal or minimally verbal, and that is now called 'classic autism' or 'Kanner autism' from the NAS list, or 'autistic disorder'.  That older meaning is describing a smaller number of people.  Largely under the influence of Lorna Wing, 'autism' has now grown to include social difficulties where there is apparently little problem with speech, but still big problems in social functioning or connection.

The NAS list is based on the 'triad of impairments' idea, with added sensory sensitivity, but it reads as quite outdated to me.  I'm now socialising with a lot of other autistic people/Aspies/Franklies, and it's a bit of a caricature.

My Mother looked up Autism over FIFTY YEARS AGO  in 1966 and it might have had a different definition to now.  In a dictionary in 1998 which I have in front of me  it says difficulty in communication.  I do not suppose she still has that dictionary.  I did have difficulty at schools but I do not know why a Psychiatrist wanted to send me to a school for Autism as I would not have fitted in with the other children.  I just explained to my Mother that in 1976 when a Psychiatrist said I had mild Autism they did know about Hans Asperger but they rightly did not want to use his name.  I still think they should not use his name because of the connotations.  I might try to ring up the NAS as I do not think it will make any difference what we say here.

Well I believe that  Hans Asperger did co-operate with the ***  otherwise he would not have been allowed to continue with his clinic.  He should have after Hitler marched in to Austria try to escape to the USA or the UK and continue his work there.  If he were alive nothing he would say would be very convincing.  At the Nuremburg trials they went by documents not very much what the defendants said.  No we should not feel ashamed that it would be better not to use the term.  I might try and contact the NAS about it as I do not that the powers that be read the E Mails.

Autism doesn’t mean people who cannot speak, though some autistic people can’t speak. Please visit this page for a comprehensive description of what autism is:

http://www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/asd.aspx

You may find the ‘Different names for autism’ section to be of particular interest.

Well Asperger people have more of the traits of Autism then the general population.  When I was nine a Psychiatrist wanted to send me to a School for Autistic Children.  She looked up Autism in the dictionary and it said Autism means people who cannot speak.  She did not think I was Autistic.  It was not explained to her why an Autistic School was recommended by the Maudsley Hospital.  Luckily I did not go to the Autistic School and I do not think I would have fitted in there.  Well as you say Autism is a Spectrum you can be on the edge of the Spectrum.  I am pleased that people are not being diagnosed any more because of the possible connotations thanks for letting me know.  I thought it was just the USA it is not being diagnosed any more.

David said:

Asperger people are not really Autistic but they have some of the traits of Autistic people.

This just isn’t correct. Those with Asperger’s are absolutely autistic and that is exactly what they are diagnosed with now (since Asperger’s Syndrome is no longer diagnosed). Remember that autism is a spectrum and that it takes a certain level of deficit to meet a diagnostic threshold. To say aspies merely have some traits of autistic people is wrong, because if this was the case they wouldn’t be diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome. Arguably, the majority of the population have some autistic traits...

As for changing the name due to possible connotations, I do not share your opinion though I do respect it.

No but people might ask you would you have obeyed orders as Hans Asperger did?

To this day I think it funny when I refused to bend over for getting a sum wrong nearly fifty years ago  the teacher told my Mother that in the Army you have to obey orders as well as at School. My Mother said that the Germans obeyed orders too much.

I do not know what you mean.  What I am saying is very simple as a Jew I find the term Asperger offensive as he might have been a Nazi.  Re Mild Autism the GP in 2009 said that in 1976 that was the equivalent of Asperger Syndrome.  Please make your replies clearer as I have not got the faintest idea of what your last reply meant.

I'm comfortable continuing to use the term Asperger's and certainly don't think it would indicate to anyone that I harbour Nazi sympathies. 

The debate about Asperger himself, and his work, is interesting but I don't feel it reflects directly upon me or what I choose to call my AS. As someone else mentioned on here, there are many terms we use that have less-than-spotless associations and I don't feel that this is the worst of them.  

Endymion said:

Ugh!

I assume you are displaying your disgust again according to some extent what you interpret as being "badgering" ~ i.e. 'repeatedly and annoyingly ask (someone) to do something' (Google Dictionary). Rather than though asking or annoying me, you are using a visceral definition as a strong inference, or hint, and thereby avoiding any clarification regarding your intentions and motivations ~ perhaps?

A simpler question should be put Do you want the  label Asperger to be replaced in the light of what we now know about Hans Asperger.?  The debate is getting very complicated.  What issue do you respect differences of opinion as we seem to be talking about different things.

Thanks for all your replies.  There are two separate issues here.   Firstly I think it is a good idea to change the term as we do not want to apply that because you have a diagnoses you would have obeyed Hitler.   On the second issue my GP explained to me in 2009 that I have the label Asperger Syndrome as a Psychiatrist who came to visit us in 1976 about something different said I was mildly Autistic.  In 1990 my Father asked the family therapist whether I would have turned out better if I had been brought up more strictly.  The answer he got was that I am as I am because I have  Asperger Syndrome.  Well I have many difficulties nothing to do with Autism but I often do know what other people are thinking.  I have perception problems I cannot recognise people and get lost easily.  I consider myself a person with difficulties and I have Autistic traits. 

Going back to the first point  I think they were right after the war not to recognise Asperger Syndrome as he was a Austrian who worked for Hitler so very simple please  call it something else.  I have visited beautiful  Austria three times and been to Berlin briefly last  year so I am not saying we should boycott modern Austria and Germany.

Ugh!

Endymion said:

Not at all! The differences of opinion have been interesting in gaining perspective on both sides of a subject I'm no expert in but am interested in! It just becomes difficult to see the wood for the trees when the badgering starts. 

Do you then mean by ~

Endymion said:

Ugh!

~ that you are 'disgusted' or 'horrified' by your interpretation of my statements previously as being involved in,

Endymion said:

It just becomes difficult to see the wood for the trees when the badgering starts. 

and so forth?

Not at all! The differences of opinion have been interesting in gaining perspective on both sides of a subject I'm no expert in but am interested in! It just becomes difficult to see the wood for the trees when the badgering starts. 

Endymion said:

Ugh!

You do not like or recognise differences of opinion from the equalitarian perspective? Or something other?

David said:

Asperger people are not really Autistic but they have some of the traits of Autistic people.

If your statement were true, Autistic people by the same measure are not then really Autistic either, as they would be diagnosed as being Psychopaths, Shizophrenics, Manic Depressives and the list goes on.

Higher Functioning Autism (HFA) sets in contrast the symptomatic traits of Lower Functioning Autism (LFA), and thus Autism as a Spectrum Condition (ASC) can be recognised as being different from other branches of Psychopathic presentations, diagnosis and treatment.

Reconsider then your opinion above as posted, as you are at least like many people unwittingly taking part, as such, in the fascist or elitist exclusions of others in this era, just as is and has been integral to ethnic cleansing for far far too long now.

Yes?