PLEASE TELL I AM NOT CRAZY. . . . . . . SURELY TO GOODNESS, I CANNOT BE THE ONLY ONE, . . . CAN I.??

AngleDust said:

Excellent point, thank you, I had rather hoped that I had expressed that I feel the same way in my previous post when I referred to an 'overlap' between the world of psychology and what some may choose to refer to as 'psychic' phenomena. As I understand it, both fields may, at times, simply be using different words or names to describe the same interesting phenomena, however, I still think differentiating between words and names can be important too.

I am myself more into differentiating what words go with what states of affairs and what names go with what objects ~ in the concrete experiential sense, such as from knowing psychics that are less functional as are most people, more functional as are some people, and completely functional as are a few people. How though different specialists fields refer to psychic phenomena definitely depends upon their 'dialect' and 'language' base, and this is in much the same sense that some say 'poe-tay-toes', others say 'spuds', and others 'apples-of-the-earth', and so on and so fourth.

AngelDust said:

Third space enquiry; In response to your question as to what I was referring to: I think the answer is yes, I believe I am. The space between self and object, self and other, self and society, in relationship; within which change (and/or phenomena if you will) can take place. I particularly like Kohut and his Self-Psychology (object and part object relating) theories.

I really identified with Spinoza (a theosophy type) when I was about eleven regarding object relations, i.e. the inadequacy of the ego-states to relate to or with whole objects and the embodiment of all objects by the absolute whole. Plato's cave analogy went really well with this stuff for me as well.

AngelDust said:

I only have a very basic understanding of TA; I attended a weekend workshop on this approach several years ago. I found it interesting but it did not 'float my boat' at the time, so I may revisit it again in light of your recommendation. I am however, very familiar (formally educated) in post modern and contemporary Freudian and Jungian theories. Adler not so much, I attended an Adlerian 12 week 'processing' group once- it was extremely interesting in terms of regressing and projecting upon the group our old familial (childhood) hierarchies.

During my formal education in psychology ~ Adler did not get so much as a mention, and it was some fifteen years later that I found about him and his work on the 'Will To Power' ~ which I had to pay close attention to most particularly from school age and which in my thirties I referred to it as 'Striving To Govern', due to my Aspergian objective bias. So when I did read Adler's take on it all it just made so much sense regarding intentional states and subjective objectives in socio-competitive-hierarchical terms, and in terms of my experiential studies it really did tie everything together for me very neatly as a comprehensive whole.

From the Freudian perspective his 'Interpretation Of Dreams' work was what I most identified with due to his model of personality and the structure of dream patterns (although his sexual obsession and superego stuff really did not make much sense as he later published on), but the vast majority of Jung's work that I have read really got my attention, what with all the archetypal symbolic and mystical-initiatic stuff involved.

AngelDust said:

Did you have a look at Schores work which I previously mentioned?

Yes I did, I found some abstracts about and practitioners mentions of Allan Schore's work, and watched a few hours of Youtube stuff featuring him, but its has so far been more introductory and patchy than contextually detailed regarding the model, so Affect Regulation And The Origin Of The Self is on the to get book list ~ to start with possibly.

AngelDust said:

I thought you might be interested in it as it seems to (clinically) evidence that 'third space' empathic responses (within a suitably sympathetic and attuned relationship) actively create synaptic (neurobiological) pathways in the brain between the Hippocampus and the Pre-frontal Cortex.

Forgetting not the Limbic system which consists of the Amygdala, the Hippocampus (a.k.a. the cingulate gyrus), and the Hypothalamus and Thalamus, along with the remainder of the cerebral brain as being an operational part of the human form as a whole.

What occurs in the cerebral brain is a reflection of what occurs in the intestinal brain, and vice-versa on account of the cardial brain's activity. This involves the receptive, protective and projective capacities of the rational, sentimental, communicational, emotional, reproductional and sensational embodiments of conscious experience, as altogether operate in parallel as simultaneous phase interactions that produce experiential awarenesses of the internal and external environment.

[If you find this stuff hard to grasp, maybe www.noeticsi.com/thinking-from-the-heart-heart-brain-science/ will be amenable as an introduction to this experiential perspective.]

AngelDust said:

Thus may be intrinsic (and critical) in the development of affect regulation between 'sentient self' and cognitive (conscious) awareness. Which you may appreciate as you said you are coming from a psychology and anatomical perspective.

Experiential awareness of consciousness involves in most cases the psychic self to begin with developmentally through affect 'modulation', whereas affect 'regulation' and cognitive (experiential) awareness involves intellectual programming from others in terms of children learning to identify with instructions, and the relevance of verbal injunctions and physical interventions.

Deep Thought said:

Your rejection of statistical or percentile data would be acceptable if the crime reduction experiment only dealt with a small range of sub-districts or districts in Washington, D.C., rather than the collective.

Also your association of the Washington crime reduction study with the American sub-prime mortgage crash, this is about as reasonable as discrediting physics on account of atomic power disasters!

I don't reject statistic per se but I am wary of claims that X depends on Y when no causality test ( see http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Granger_causality ) is quoted. People were given Nobel prizes for their work on risk prior to the financial crash. It turned out that their statistic interpretation was not useful in trying to predict human behaviour even though they had built sophisticated statistical models. My suspicion is that the crime data is not really explicable by the stats. Other statistical models can be useful - but statistics is one of the truly difficult branches of maths that is more often abused than used sensibly. Hence the phrase "lies, damned lies and statistics".

recombinantsocks said:

I think that you are saying that we are affected by everything in the universe and are therefore connected to everything else. This is true but there is no useful signal that can be divined from such co-existence.

I am not personally into divination myself, as my thing is transcendental meditation and self development, so if 'something' (whatever it may be) is meant to be known it will be so only when it is so. I am very very much a present tense sort of person myself.

As for how useful things are for you will depend upon your developmental tastes and your needs in life, just as other people's developing tastes and needs determines what they find to be individually fulfilling for themselves. 

recombinantsocks said:

We can take comfort from our shared existence but it does not mean that it is passing information to us except in the sense that we have shared history, common DNA etc which enables separated twins, for example, to be on the same wavelength in spite of their separation.

As well as the collective unconscious in genetic terms, there is also the collective consciousness in psychic terms, keeping in mind that consciousness is not awareness, and that psychic awareness involves the development of mental and physical experiences of consciousness and the material environment.

Hence for twins there is at least a strong genetic and cellular coherence in terms of their psychic entanglement individually, as applies to others also to different extents (physically, mentally and psychically) regarding collective and universal consciousness.

recombinantsocks said:

I do find the twins studies fascinating but I am also struck by the way that my thinking patterns are pre-programmed by my DNA. I have moments when I understand that I am responding in the same way as my father did even though he has been dead for some years - the influence persists through the complexity of the DNA that we had in common.

Actually ~ linguistic frameworks or language bases are genetically 'pre-conditioned'. The 'pre-programmed' aspect involves others (i.e. parents and so fourth) who have already learnt to speak, think and behave in formulated and consistent patterns according to others (i.e. their parents and so fourth).

recombinantsocks said:

I find that your case is not helped by such references to crime statistics. I find such items ludicrous. The "usual standards of social science" (like the understanding of economics that lead to the recent financial crashes) do not withstand the same scrutiny as the physics experiments that have measured gravity waves.

Statistics is a branch of mathematics that deals with the collection, analysis, interpretation, presentation and organisation of data.

Your rejection of statistical or percentile data would be acceptable if the crime reduction experiment only dealt with a small range of sub-districts or districts in Washington, D.C., rather than the collective.

Also your association of the Washington crime reduction study with the American sub-prime mortgage crash, this is about as reasonable as discrediting physics on account of atomic power disasters!

recombinantsocks said:

I enjoy listening to Laurie Taylor (Thinking Allowed) but I listen to him for entertainment and enlightenment rather than as a source of facts.

I like 'Classic FM' in the baroque sense of things, although my tastes in the operatic sense are minimal, whereas for entertainment classical music is instead enlightenment in the awareness sense of reliving choosey eidetic recollections, and so forth.

recombinantsocks said:

I have little use for this spiritual stuff in the same way that I have little use for fiction these days.

What you find useful other than the topics of spiritual reality and fictional compositions is up to you as an individual, and that which others likewise or otherwise identify with or relate to individually, that is equally as much up to them.

recombinantsocks said:

The real world contains well enough fantastic detail and fabulous stories to keep me entertained.

I find the realities of the world and the relativities of the mind-body relationship are that which keep me most enthusiastically intrigued. 

recombinantsocks said:

Each to their own?

Respectfully so most definitely yes ~ what with there being as many different ways to appreciate life as there are living things in life, or in more catchy terms perhaps, "Different strokes for different folks."

DeepThought said:

In terms of localised entanglement we are not, with non-localised entanglement though we are.

I think that you are saying that we are affected by everything in the universe and are therefore connected to everything else. This is true but there is no useful signal that can be divined from such co-existence. We can take comfort from our shared existence but it does not mean that it is passing information to us except in the sense that we have shared history, common DNA etc which enables separated twins, for example, to be on the same wavelength in spite of their separation. I do find the twins studies fascinating but I am also struck by the way that my thinking patterns are pre-programmed by my DNA. I have moments when I understand that I am responding in the same way as my father did even though he has been dead for some years - the influence persists through the complexity of the DNA that we had in common.

I find that your case is not helped by such references to crime statistics. I find such items ludicrous. The "usual standards of social science" (like the understanding of economics that lead to the recent financial crashes) do not withstand the same scrutiny as the physics experiments that have measured gravity waves. I enjoy listening to Laurie Taylor (Thinking Allowed) but I listen to him for entertainment and enlightenment rather than as a source of facts.

I have little use for this spiritual stuff in the same way that I have little use for fiction these days. The real world contains well enough fantastic detail and fabulous stories to keep me entertained. Each to their own?

recombinantsocks said:

But entangled particles must start out together before being separated.

Being entangled in one place together and also in another place apart, proves both local and non local entanglement. The entangled pairs in local terms are then the exception, and the exception proves thereby the rule of collective entanglement involving both local and non-local states of affairs.

So if you have ever wondered why, or did not know that twins are regularly sought for medicinal and therapeutic research ~ it is because the 'exception proves the general rule'. For example: one twin may react to a treatment, in the sense of feeling ill, and the other respond, in the sense of feeling well, thus contraindications and ameliorations are correlated for desired effectiveness amongst other individuals.

recombinantsocks said:

They talk about separated particles but it is implicit that the particles share a common origin.

The charge or frequency of the wave correlates with the charge or frequency of the particle ~ because of the shared zero-point energy constrained in it and it's field of emergence, as in turn correlates with the charges or frequencies of other waves and particles due to the shared zero-point energies that are constrained in their fields also ~ locally and non locally.

The implication is therefore that everything is more proportionally entangled with everything else in terms of dark energy and dark matter, and less proportionately in terms of standard matter and standard energy.

The teams of Fermi Large Area Telescope, and CERN Hadron Collider have essentially proven that standardised baryonic physics have metaphorically a tape-measure for measuring what a mileometer is needed for. The mileometer is still being designed, the prototype components are still being tested and developed, and the mileage beyond standardised baryonic measurements is definitely there.

recombinantsocks said:

I cannot be entangled with you because we were never as close as the photons or other particles that have shown entanglement.

In terms of localised entanglement we are not, with non-localised entanglement though we are.

recombinantsocks said:

(edit: See this article https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/context/entanglement-spooky-not-action-distance for a bit more of a readable explanation of how entanglement happens)

Interesting that localised entanglement through the fielded states of standard baryonic matter is being accepted.

With the exception proving the rule thing though, progressive orders of field interference and coherence patterns have and are being detected and experimented with ~ all through the sub-atomic, atomic and alto-atomic field spectrums, in each and every case.

recombinantsocks said:

I still don't see the need for all of these theories about people being able to share visions via entanglement. I haven't seen any evidence of a need for a psychic explanation for anything. People make predictions and the prediction comes true or not. The fact that a prediction was correct does not mean that there was psychic premonition at work, it just means that some guesses turn out to be correct and others turn out to be incorrect.

Well, in that some people do not see the need for televisions and all that, and as a result even live completely out in the wilderness, it does not exclude that other people find that they really need instead more socially stimulating involvements.

Obviously you live according to a more materially directed theory of life; the universe and everything, and I a more spiritually orientated one. Both varieties of awareness seem equally appropriate to me given the nature of things as I experience them, and as others report them.

As far as not needing to share in the affects and effects of quantum entanglement or cohesion goes, and matters of chance and all that, there has been a progression of studies done involving Transcendental Meditation Sidhas (T.M. Experts), and one of the studies became particular well known in the early to mid nineties, reported as follows:

Source: www.worldpeace.org/washington_crime_study.html

Washington crime study shows 23.3% drop in violent crime trend due to meditating group.

Washing crime study findings:

A two month national demonstration project conducted in Washington, D.C., showed how a coherence-creating group of TM Sihas can reduce crime and social stress and improve the effectiveness of government.

There was a carefully controlled scientific demonstration carried out between June 7 and July 30, 1993. The study involved a coherence group of TM-Sidhis who increased in number from 800 to a maximum of 4000, over the trial.

Before the project, violent crime had been steadily increasing during the first five months of the year.

A week or so after the study, violent crime (HRA) crime: Homicides, rapes and aggravated assaults, measured by FBI Uniform Crime Statistics) began decreasing and continued to drop until the end of the experiment.

Before the project the researchers had publicly predicted that the coherence group would reduce crime by 20%. This prediction had been ridiculed by the Chief of Police who asserted that the only thing that would decrease crime that much would be twenty inches of snow. In the end, the maximum decrease was 23.3% below the time series prediction for that period of the year. This significant reversal in the predicted crime trend occurred when the size of the group was at its largest in the final week of the project and during a blistering heat wave.

The statistical probability that this result could reflect chance variation in crime levels was less than 2 in 1 billion (p <000000002).

When the projected disbanded HRA crime began to rise again.

The research is extremely reliable by the usual standards of social science. As a result we know that the effects of the cohesion group can not be attributed to other possible cases, including temperature, precipitation, weekends, and police and community anticrime activities.

If anybody feels more inclined to consider this sort of metaphysical-quantum-physical interaction stuff, their is a video on Youtube titled, "What The Bleep Do We Know!" as included this study as a mention.

Deepthought said:

He was referring, specifically, to entanglement, the idea that two physically separated articles can have correlated properties, with values that are uncertain until they are measured

But entangled particles must start out together before being separated. They talk about separated particles but it is implicit that the particles share a common origin. I cannot be entangled with you because we were never as close as the photons or other particles that have shown entanglement. (edit: See this article https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/context/entanglement-spooky-not-action-distance for a bit more of a readable explanation of how entanglement happens)

I still don't see the need for all of these theories about people being able to share visions via entanglement. I haven't seen any evidence of a need for a psychic explanation for anything. People make predictions and the prediction comes true or not. The fact that a prediction was correct does not mean that there was psychic premonition at work, it just means that some guesses turn out to be correct and others turn out to be incorrect.

recombinantsocks said:

Dark matter may not be the missing piece, it is possible that the equations are wrong and that our understanding of space-time is wrong - perhaps space time is a particulate or quantum thing rather than a smooth continuum.

Well with E=MC2 not being a constant, and only applicable in atmospheric environments, any theories of space time using that the formula kind of need re-evaluating somewhat ~ as Warwick University proved a few years back.

recombinantsocks said:

Also, even if it turns out to be a correct theory, then its invisibility would mean that it could play no part in communicating between us.

I think then your sense of things and my sense of are particularly well covered by the proceeding article, which I have in terms of paragraphs excluded to an extent, and have rearranged the order of one (marked by asterisk/*) to reduce the chance here of tech-talk confusion or overload. Obviously you can go to source at 'phys.org', and read it all in its technical wholesomeness, or just ponder it in the less technical sense as follows:

NIST team proves 'spooky action at a distance' really is real

Einstein was wrong about at least one thing: There are, in fact, "spooky actions at a distance," as now proven by researchers at the National Institute of Standards and Technology {N.I.S.T).

Einstein used the term to refer to quantum mechanics, which describes the curious behaviour of the smallest particles of matter and light. He was referring, specifically, to entanglement, the idea that two physically separated articles can have correlated properties, with values that are uncertain until they are measured, Einstein was dubious, and until now, researchers have been unable to support it with near-total confidence. 

*The N.I.S.T. experiments are called Bell tests, so named because in 1964 Irish physicist John Bell showed there are limits to measurement correlations that can be ascribed to local, pre-existing (i.e. realistic) conditions. Additional correlations beyond those limits would require either sending signals faster than the speed of light, which scientists consider impossible, or another mechanism, such as quantum entanglement. 

As described in a paper posted online and submitted to Physical Review Letters (P.R.L.), researchers from N.I.S.T. and several other institutions created pairs of identical light particles or photons, and sent them to two different locations to be measured. Researchers showed the measured results not only were correlated, but also ~ by eliminating all other known options ~ that these correlations cannot be caused by the locally controlled, "realistic" universe Einstein thought we lived in. This implies a different explanation such as quantum entanglement. 

"You can't prove quantum entanglement, but local realism, or hidden local action, is incompatible with our experiment," N.I.S.T.'s Krister Shalm says. "Our results agree with what quantum mechanics predicts about the spooky actions shared by entangled particles."

So with baryonic science or sensibility being restricted to the realities of the material spectrum range; the remainder is as such 'in-visible' and therefore more intelligible for those who are more open experientially to the realities of the quantum or spiritual spectrum range. Hence I agree very much with the expression: "Once you have met one autistic person, you have met one autistic person," as in my mind applies to the physical, mental and psychical abilities of any one individual's character ~ whether or not they be divergent from or convergent to the nature of the individuality within themselves.

Spotty said said:

I love reading this thread, even if my head is not in a place where I can look into it further :)

:-)

Deepthought is pushing me into reading stuff that I wouldn't have read and it's making me think and try and work out how to respond to make him think and respond. There's nothing wrong with a bit of rigorous Socratic debate!

I love reading this thread, even if my head is not in a place where I can look into it further :)

The current situation, as I understand it, is that dark matter is postulated in order to make the astrophysicists' sums add up and for the observations to match the current theories. The Wikipedia article on the subject says

Dark matter is a hypothetical type of matter distinct from baryonic matter (ordinary matter such as protons and neutrons), neutrinos and dark energy. Dark matter has never been directly observed; however, its existence would explain a number of otherwise puzzling astronomical observations.^[1][2] The name refers to the fact that it does not emit or interact with electromagnetic radiation, such as light, and is thus invisible to the entire electromagnetic spectrum.^[3] Although dark matter has not been directly observed, its existence and properties are inferred from its gravitational effects such as the motions of visible matter,^[4] gravitational lensing, its influence on the universe's large-scale structure, on galaxies, and its effects on the cosmic microwave background.

Dark matter may not be the missing piece, it is possible that the equations are wrong and that our understanding of space-time is wrong - perhaps space time is a particulate or quantum thing rather than a smooth continuum.

Also, even if it turns out to be a correct theory, then its invisibility would mean that it could play no part in communicating between us.

recombinantsocks said:

But, further on in the science daily article it also says

Most notably, this result supports the theory that 26 percent of the universe is in the form of mysterious dark matter and that space is filled with an also-unseen dark energy, which is causing the accelerating expansion of the universe and makes up 70 percent.

i.e. It is a theory not a proven fact.

It is the factual evidence of dark matter ~ not unlike proof of invisible swimmers on account of their splashing about in a large pool of water ~ which supports other theories concerning dark matter and zero point energy.

Evidence supporting a theory does not disprove the supporting evidence. 

[/quote]

recombinantsocks said:

As I understand it, dark matter is a model that explains some things but it hasn't been proven. 

Picture if you will a routine/basic X-Ray that shows many 'not-meant-to-be-there' dark masses or lumps in a persons body, and that the X-Ray does not not reveal whether these dark masses or lumps are precancerous, cancerous or otherwise. More equipment is then needed to diagnose what is what.

This is by analogy where astrophysicists and quantum physicists are now in terms of understanding how much dark matter there is in the known universe. How to directly differentiate between the constituent individualities of antimatter particles themselves though ~ this has yet to be achieved, and in this particular sense you are very much correct.

Deepthought said:

Dark Energy Survey scientists have unveiled the most accurate measurement ever made of the present large-scale structure of the universe. These measurements of the amount and 'clumpiness' (or distribution) of dark matter in the present day cosmos were made with a precision that, for the first time, rivals that of inferences from the early universe by the European Space Agency's orbiting Planck observatory.

But, further on in the science daily article it also says

Most notably, this result supports the theory that 26 percent of the universe is in the form of mysterious dark matter and that space is filled with an also-unseen dark energy, which is causing the accelerating expansion of the universe and makes up 70 percent.

i.e. It is a theory not a proven fact. Their measurements did not prove the existence of dark matter but were consistent with the concepts of dark matter. Consider also Fay Dowker's work http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08pdzxj (BBC Life Scientific Interview) which was the thing that alerted me to the possibility that dark matter might not be real. As I understand it, dark matter is a model that explains some things but it hasn't been proven. 

recombinantsocks said:

1. It is not actually certain that dark matter exists. e.g. See this article https://www.wired.com/2017/01/case-dark-matter/

Erich Verlinde who is quote "known for [his] bold and prescient, if sometimes imperfect, ideas." has definitely as a Theoretical Physicist maintained his reputation here, as dark matter is known to actually exist for certain ~ as it has been extensively quantified and the data of which was published by:

DOE/Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory, in Geneva, on the 03/08/17 or 08/03/17, as in summary goes:

Dark Energy Survey scientists have unveiled the most accurate measurement ever made of the present large-scale structure of the universe. These measurements of the amount and 'clumpiness' (or distribution) of dark matter in the present day cosmos were made with a precision that, for the first time, rivals that of inferences from the early universe by the European Space Agency's orbiting Planck observatory.

Source: www.sciencedaily.com

recombinantsocks said:

2. If dark matter exists then its darkness, or invisibility, to all interaction with all matter means that it is not detectable by our physical bodies and our physical bodies leave no trace within the dark matter.

So being that there is no if or uncertainty about dark matter existing, consider again:

Deepthought said:

This we know in that the architectures of dark matter essentially exists as structural holograms, and all structures of form receive and transmit dark energy or zero-point energy ~ as like a personal computer or smartphone transmits and receives photographic and linguistic information. Thought waves and radio waves work exactly on the same principles.

recombinantsocks said:

Thought waves are only visible when you examine a brain with fmri etc.

In terms of the physiological senses alone, yes of course, no doubt apparatus is required, but in terms of dark-matter field interactions the psychological senses are enough, unless of course someone needs to see what the sensitive or psychic is sensing.

Perhaps check out Robert O. Becker and Gary Seldon's book 'THE BODY ELECTRIC', or related websites if you feel as such curious.  

If otherwise inclined, Rupert Sheldrake's book 'THE SCIENCE DELUSION' is a really good introduction to Holographic/Field Theory and relinquishing the outdated Shell/Big-Bang Model paradigm of universal existence.

recombinantsocks said:

The microscopic scale of neurons means that any electrical or magnetic emanations of one thought in a mind will be swamped by the emanations resulting from all of the other thoughts (conscious and subconscious) that are going on simultaneously.

In the electromagnetic sense of looking for a singular emanation of neurons that is relatively easily, but if doing so in terms of recognising a thought ~ that is like listening to song or band by looking for one second at an LED sound registration display on the musical device whilst set on mute. Whereas picking up the diamagnetic fields of others involves a psychic tuning into themselves or just being inwardly tuned anyway and thereby being able to receive the transmission of intelligible data streams, like learning to listen more only to a singular instrument in an orchestra.

recombinantsocks said:

fmri is a sequential scan of the microscopic scale (similar to the scan of the electron beam across a CRT tube) of tiny fractions of the brain at many points in time. When you scan in this way and then present a picture then you can see patterns but it is not a pattern that will be discernible without the vast technology of the MRI scanner.

Yeah, I had my head magnetic resonant scanned some years back due to Psychogenic Not Epillectic Seizures, which was first thought to be epilepsy, and the technician was more than eager to show me how its imaging system worked, and we had quite a detailed look at bits of my limbic system as it is one of my favourite parts of the cerebral brain, and I was very interested in FMRIS operations anyway. The thing is here the F.M.R.I. scanner must have S.Q.U.I.D. enhancement in order to register the diamagnetic impulses, and it is these that can not only be sensed but also seen by some psychics or sensitives.

recombinantsocks said:

Alternatively if you have some peer reviewed articles that explain the mechanism that you describe then I would be interested to read it.

Well I find the Science Daily website a really really good source and jump point, although the more informative stuff is often locked to the unqualified, and there is also The Society For Psychical Research if you fancy going in that direction instead or also too, possibly.

This is all so very interesting, I will offer my thought's as soon as my life situation allows me to.

Hi Deepthought,

Deepthought said:

I am not a cynic really any more myself concerning people's choice of words, as I am generally more interested in finding out what they are actually referring to, especially if it is life affirming and of particular interest to or concern for them.  

Excellent point, thank you, I had rather hoped that I had expressed that I feel the same way in my previous post when I referred to an 'overlap' between the world of psychology and what some may choose to refer to as 'psychic' phenomena. As I understand it, both fields may, at times, simply be using different words or names to describe the same interesting phenomena, however, I still think differentiating between words and names can be important too.

Third space enquiry; In response to your question as to what I was referring to: I think the answer is yes, I believe I am. The space between self and object, self and other, self and society, in relationship; within which change (and/or phenomena if you will) can take place. I particularly like Kohut and his Self-Psychology (object and part object relating) theories.

I only have a very basic understanding of TA; I attended a weekend workshop on this approach several years ago. I found it interesting but it did not 'float my boat' at the time, so I may revisit it again in light of your recommendation. I am however, very familiar (formally educated) in post modern and contemporary Freudian and Jungian theories. Adler not so much, I attended an Adlerian 12 week 'processing' group once- it was extremely interesting in terms of regressing and projecting upon the group our old familial (childhood) hierarchies.

Did you have a look at Schores work which I previously mentioned? I thought you might be interested in it as it seems to (clinically) evidence that 'third space' empathic responses (within a suitably sympathetic and attuned relationship) actively create synaptic (neurobiological) pathways in the brain between the Hippocampus and the Pre-frontal Cortex. Thus may be intrinsic (and critical) in the development of affect regulation between 'sentient self' and cognitive (conscious) awareness. Which you may appreciate as you said you are coming from a psychology and anatomical perspective.

Angle Dust said:

Thank you Deepthought, I really appreciate you taking the time to help me understand these things from a different perspective.

Well I rather appreciate different perspectives, so thank you also too. 

Angel Dust said:

I am an absolute cynic when it comes to anything associated with or labelled ‘Psychic;’~

I am not a cynic really any more myself concerning people's choice of words, as I am generally more interested in finding out what they are actually referring to, especially if it is life affirming and of particular interest to or concern for them.  

Angel Dust said:

~however I have long been very interested in what could be deemed ‘third space’ phenomena from a Neurobiological and Psychology perspective.

Are you referring to the psychic or cellular vitalisations of a person's mentally and physically developing relationship with the objects and states of affairs in the material environment; when you state 'third space' phenomena?

I come more from the Anatomical and Psychological perspectives.   

Angel Dust said:

I am particularly interested in Allan Schores work on ‘right brain to right brain mirroring’ (empathic response) in the development of the infantile brain and in the lifelong regulation of affect.

I have been particular engrossed with Berne's Transactional Analysis, and Freudian, Adlerian and Jungian Psychoanalysis. In terms of Physiology I am anatomically oriented.

Angel Dust said:

And, having read the information you have kindly provided, I now recognise that it may be possible that there may be some ‘overlapping’ taking place in the worlds of Psychology and ‘Psychic’ phenomena in some specific instances. I must therefore perhaps learn to suspend my initial prejudice to some reasonable (but still informed) degree when it comes to anything labelled ‘psychic’ in the future.

I have always found that prejudice makes hard work of things, whilst healthy scepticism allows more comparative understandings and comprehensions to develop.  

Deepthought said:

This we know in that the architectures of dark matter essentially exists as structural holograms, and all structures of form receive and transmit dark energy or zero-point energy ~ as like a personal computer or smartphone transmits and receives photographic and linguistic information. Thought waves and radio waves work exactly on the same principles.  

1. It is not actually certain that dark matter exists. e.g. See this article https://www.wired.com/2017/01/case-dark-matter/

2. If dark matter exists then its darkness, or invisibility, to all interaction with all matter means that it is not detectable by our physical bodies and our physical bodies leave no trace within the dark matter.

Thought waves are only visible when you examine a brain with fmri etc. The waves do not emanate from our heads to be detected by others. Thought waves fundamentally work on very different principles. The microscopic scale of neurons means that any electrical or magnetic emanations of one thought in a mind will be swamped by the emanations resulting from all of the other thoughts (conscious and subconscious) that are going on simultaneously. fmri is a sequential scan of the microscopic scale (similar to the scan of the electron beam across a CRT tube) of tiny fractions of the brain at many points in time. When you scan in this way and then present a picture then you can see patterns but it is not a pattern that will be discernible without the vast technology of the MRI scanner.

Alternatively if you have some peer reviewed articles that explain the mechanism that you describe then I would be interested to read it.

Thank you so much AngelDust. I have wondered about these things before and not really come up with an answer. The range of discussions hasn't yet ceased to surprise me and I enjoy "listening " to the different conversations. 

Hi Misfit61,

I don't believe that I understand everything being said here either.

And I have seen and appreciated some of your other posts and therefore I don't believe it possible you could ever lower any intellectual discussions that are taking place.

Sadly, without providing reference to accountable and peer reviewed research, its really hard for me to fully appreciate whether what is being discussed (or offered) in this general discussion at times is actual science (physics)  or pseudoscience.

In response to your questions though: yes, I have generally heard of the twin phenomena too and I don't have any answers here. Personally, I admit my first thoughts about it are that it may have a lot to do with coincidence; We may have many fleeting thoughts in a day about loved ones, and these may include worries and concerns and, if these thoughts are then proved to be only fleeting worries then we likely don't remember them or ever think of them again. However, if we then find that a loved one has been harmed for example, we may then vividly recall our passing thoughts about them that day and, (in light of our realising some upsetting news about them,) perhaps we may recall and then latch on to those thoughts much harder, believing them instead to have therefore been premonitions?

I think the perception of the 'floating self' you mentioned is entirely possible, however I don't personally attribute anything 'psychic' to this phenomena but think it may likely be a very ordinary capacity that all individuals may 'adopt' or perceive in times of stress or altered states, such as half asleep, meditative or similar?

What I do know is that the mind is a very 'magical' thing, capable of amazing tricks and fantastic antics.  

And as for animals, I do believe they are capable of empathising and picking up on our feelings in the way you described; pets in particular are in close relationship with us after all, and therefore, part of being in a relationship must surely be the capacity to know each other so well that we can seem to 'mind read' one another at times? I personally have a cat who knows me better than I dare to know myself.  

recombinantsocks said:

It all depends on definitions.

It all depends upon the objects and states of affairs being defined, and thereafter linguistic semantics can be refined. So concrete objects and states of affairs first, semantics second, otherwise terms and meanings get displaced or replaced and it goes all 'New-Speak' as George Orwell described it; regarding totalitarian ideologies concerning what is not to be accepted.

recombinantsocks said:

If a psychic is a person that can pick up, subconsciously, on the collective historical actions, expressions (visible body language and verbal speech)  of a person in a way that they can't understand or verbalise then that is OK.~

Psychical abilities involve more preconscious and conscious states of mind, body and other bodies in other times and other spaces past, present and future, and psychic specialists have also not only a more direct understanding, but also a comparative comprehension of what for most people is quite correctly referred to as being the Collective Subconscious, i.e. genetically inherited knowledge from the family tree. And by comparison I mean the Collective Unconscious is not the only Tree nor does it offer the only fruit.

recombinantsocks said:

~NT people are often better at picking things up through expression and are often better in tune with other people. I suppose that a ND person may be better at some parts of this and might specialise and tune their ability in the solitude of their social isolation.

It really appears you are describing mentalists or behaviouralists rather than psychic specialists, or psychic laypeople. None the less you are correct about solitude being useful, such as for learning to handle some psychic problems, like getting overloaded or overwhelmed by other people's emotional and mental stuff, but relating with other psychics about the moral and ethical issues of being psychic can be incredibly useful too.

Consider for instance whether to tell or not that somebody will not be coming back from their next holiday, on account of destiny, or knowing that one chosen course of actions will lead to one or more deaths, and informing people of this can ensure that the death or deaths result as a result of obstinate compulsions by the person or people in question. Does the psychic play a part in killing people or risk saving their lives?

recombinantsocks said:

The problem comes when people speak of telepathy as a psychic power. I am deeply sceptical of any possibility that there are alternative ways of passing thoughts from one person to another that do not rely on one of the recognised physical transport mechanisms.

Being sceptical is actually highly recommendable from a scientific or pragmatic standpoint, as long as your are making effort not to see your hypothesis or theories as being the final answer, which is referred to as model blindness, for in science it is not the answer that is sought ~ but the next part of the question or equation. In the linguistic and semantic branch of psychology, and others too for instance, there is an expression that goes,

"For the sake of sanity; keep in mind that the map is not the territory."

recombinantsocks said:

We transmit our thoughts by speech, expression, by the accumulated trail of physical actions that we leave behind us when we make things, break things, move things around and organise things and so on. We do not have a way of passing our thoughts through walls to another person in another place unless there is some real mechanism to transmit that thought.

Yes to some extent, we do transmit out mental thoughts by physical words and not through walls or long distances either, but the emotional content of those words is, and this is what psychics receive as being intelligible and translatable data.

This we know in that the architectures of dark matter essentially exists as structural holograms, and all structures of form receive and transmit dark energy or zero-point energy ~ as like a personal computer or smartphone transmits and receives photographic and linguistic information. Thought waves and radio waves work exactly on the same principles.    

recombinantsocks said:

It seems to me that Hendrow may be picking up on other people's pains and emotions subconsciously but that the mental image that he has of that pain is too "real" to him and that he perhaps cannot distinguish between a mental image and a real image.

The problem here is that with people picking-up on other peoples energies subconsciously, as everybody as such doing, they cannot be aware of so doing, as subconsciousness exists behind the threshold of preconscious awareness, which is an intermediary state of mind, and as such sensing or seeing other peoples energies is obscured, or obstructed.

As far as learning to differentiate between objectively received representations of actual phenomena, i.e. like x-ray and auric vision etc, and subjective representations of that phenomena in terms of being virtual confabulations (a collage made of old and new memories) or abstractions (distorting the original presentation with artistic license) ~ this is not really all that important as an issue, unless of course becoming a psychic specialist is involved where presentation strong representations are strictly required, as is the case for legal or medical work and so fourth.

When it comes to deriving images from habitual behaviour patterns, i.e. that is where the pain always is ~ and an abstract visualisations becomes associated with those locations as cogent visual data streams, this does not not exclude psychic phenomena either, in the same sense that stabilisers do not exclude the riding of a push bike. Neither does this exclude that a person is fantasizing or delusional about being psychically developed, but this in no way involves them or anybody else as not being at some stage of psychic development, unless of course they have physically died.   

recombinantsocks said:

The ability of the mind to construct very convincing images is very familiar to most people because dreams seem to be absolutely real when we are experiencing them.

The reason that dreams are experienced as being real when we are dreaming is because dreams occur in environmental realities that are composed of dark-matter, and zero-point energy. The dark-matter environments of dreams are progressively more refined or subtle states of existence or experience, with each one facilitating a more developmental sense of reality, meaning that the physical experience of molecular reality for most people involves being more asleep, and dreaming involves being more awake, consciously speaking.  

recombinantsocks said:

~We know, however, when we wake up that we have been dreaming and we are happy to distinguish dreams and other imagined events from images that have a basis in reality.~

All experiences are products of reality, and you are more familiar seemingly with the imagined reality of physical existence as being reality, rather than a state of reality that composes merely 0.04 % of the totality of presently known existence, scientifically speaking. 

recombinantsocks said:

~A problem comes when a person cannot distinguish between reality and imagined things.~

Delusions are of course spectacularly problematic if you do not realise you are having them, getting wise to them is of course tricky but really worthwhile in personal development terms.

recombinantsocks said:

To be clear, some imagined visions can be very useful regardless of whether they were generated in a dream or while a person is conscious. Perhaps some people can slip between consciousness and sleep via a mixed up state where they are unclear about whether they are dreaming or having real experiences?

I think here being unclear about which realities are which is not helpful unless the person is aware of the differences or irregularities and learns to relate with them either accordingly, or harmoniously. Those who have Synesthesia for instance and know that a particular smell represents something other than is being smelt, will find knowing that more helpful than looking outwardly for the source of the non-existent physical smell. As such we are referring here to psychological compensations, in that things above the physiological ranges of perception are being catered for.

recombinantsocks said:

One other somewhat tangential observation is that Hendrow expresses a fear of mental illness and a reluctance to discuss things in terms of mental illness.~

For those expressing things in relation to being different, fearing madness may be a concern, but I have generally found that such fear is more generally involved with being psychologically humiliated, or even physiologically annihilated.

recombinantsocks said:

~I think that an inability to distinguish reality from imagination could be (but isn't necessarily!) so problematic as to require mental health considerations. Surely, on this forum, we should not be afraid of discussing mental health issues and concerns.~

So being that it is not in your opinion necessarily requisite that mental health considerations be addressed, discussing without fear mental health issues and concerns should not then exclude psychical explanations and considerations either, which as such gives us the means to have an open minded and balanced discussion.

recombinantsocks said:

~I am aware that my own mind has been very disturbed at various points. For me, the issues passed by in the same way that a weather storm passes. I am aware that the mental health in my mind has different states on different days and I liken this to meteorological weather in that it can be sunny or stormy on different days. Perhaps it would help if we made a conscious effort to normalise discussions about mental health by discussing them more openly?

And if you we make an effort to include psychic experiences we can meet each other in the middle regarding Psyche-Logical parameters that have also been scientifically validated by Quantum-Physicists, using S.Q.U.I.D. enhanced F.M.R.I. scanners. Psychology and Quantum Physics were until the last few decades thought to be too theoretical to be actual sciences, now though they are together the united forefront of all sciences.

Basically though, S.Q.U.I.D. enhanced F.M.R.I. scanners are showing scientists and doctors exactly what psychics have reported seeing or working with as in scientific terms being electromagnetic, diamagnetic and zero-point energies.