Help, please, with sanctions for teenager with Aspergers

Hi there, this was a timely blast from the past! I've just been trying to get back into my account to reply to you. I'm sorry you are going through this. I would say that overall, things have improved. The episodes have become less frequent and he has, to an extent, learnt to control his aggression. Having said that, we are currently in a period of verbal abuse and arguments again. It is certainly linked to anxiety and when the pressure builds up at college - deadlines and decisions are the main causes of anxiety for us - the aggression picks up at home. Certainly at the moment I don't feel I can do anything right so I don't know what advice to offer I'm afraid! Giving him more independence and ownership made things easier, and in lockdown he thrived.  I don't know if you have other children, but a huge heartache for us has been the emotional effect of all the trauma on our daughter. It's hard enough being a teenager without the added angst at home.

I would say, if you can, take a step back and give him time to calm down. My mistake was getting too involved in the arguments which escalated the whole situation. When it has diffused, be there and show you understand. Hopefully he will then be able to talk about the anxieties causing the behaviour. I really do feel for you and hope things get easier for you all soon.

Hi MJ, I realise this thread was started 4 years ago but I have a nearly 16 year old son who is very high functioning and you basically could have been writing about him! I was just wondering if things have improved over the last 4 years? I sometimes find myself in despair of what to do with the aggressive verbally abusive behaviour. It is clearly linked to severe anxiety but like your son back then his behaviour is impeccable at school and we have bore the brunt at home. I totally empathise with you as we try so hard to accommodate his needs but sometimes it feels the harder we try the worse it is. Anyway, I could write for days (!) but just wanted to know if things got easier and if you found any strategies that worked long term? 
I appreciate this is an old thread but if you do happen to look here would love to hear from you. Many thanks 

Song

Because I am the classic combination of new and not good at this, I haven't worked out how to reply directly to your msg.  But thank you!  I understand and really appreciate your information.  

I will master the system and respond directly.

If violence is a problem why can't a lack of violence be rewarded. 

if it were to get through that when the child doesn't react violently things are nicer for them then it is possible that they will be less violent in the future.

so instead of a sanction for bad behaviour you get reward for good behaviour.

it seems that just doing things right even if they cause you great mental pain has no reward at all.  You have to go above and beyond for reward which is fine if you can cope with normal but if you are struggling which both of your children are then even just being good is painfully in itself.

Thanks so much for the support. The over eating is nostly out of the house. At home she has her own snack box which limits the otjer things she takes a bit. The shop by the school bus stop (and i want her to have the independence of walking home) and the school tuck shop. Have spoken to tje SENCO and explained to him (see my otjer thread of today for opinion about him!) He is (still) looling at ways to keep an eye on her. I have sent him screenshots of what she is buying in one day and thats in addition to the sweets (and we are a non- gelatine eating house so its a double bliw for me when she brings those in).  

Have at least got school to agree no need for pupils to have a £5 overdraft facility- that took me 2 years!! 

You're right about involvingv11 year old. Rightly or wrongly and in order to let daughter own her diagnosis I have let her lead on when to tell people and she says she's not ready quite. Diagnosed in Jan - she hates the word Aspergers , let alone anything autism ......

And then when I'm despairing I think about how the world looks to her and feel bad for my attitude.

Thanks though - it's so good to share. 

MJ

The funny(?) thing is that I forget/ forgive the kickng and hitting - it's only ever me that she hits. Just once it has reduced me to tears for the whole evening. 

Because we are trying to lay off thecsanctiobs, I don't know how to deal - I can't be true to myself and reward a lack of violence.

It would be helpful if you keep me updated as to your progress - perhaps show there is hope. 

I am persuading her back to psychologist - in my head I know she must be unhappy and confused. But it's a hard thing to deal with.  

Hallo, What we've found sometimes works with tasks like laundry, teeth, homework etc is to make a checklist so it is a written reminder of things that need doing. Sometimes my son can relate more to something on paper than verbal instructions and can quite like the idea of ticking them off when he's done. (Other times however he will rip up the list and throw it at me, so make sure you save a copy for re-printing!)  We did have a laminated check list that said: homework, trumpet practice; room tidy?; Ask if there's any jobs you can help with?...All done then you can use your time as you wish - eg read, trampoline, iPad, TV.  He needed the suggestions. It did work most of the time with his organisation after school and only fell down when some other anxiety was taking over.

Can you try to move her off the eating snacks, for which she feels like she needs money, to something else that will comfort her? Quite often with Asperger's they get fixated on something for a while and then move on to something else.  If she's not passionate about anything else it might be difficult, but if you had a puzzle game or something, perhaps she could be persuaded to try and complete that every time she felt like eating? Or listen to music? Go for a walk?  There may be an app she could play for five minutes?

I'm not sure about the sanctions. My instinct would be to warn her of the consequences about taking money, which I'm sure you will have done. I've a friend whose child stole their credit card details and they got the police involved to show how serious it was. I'm not saying you should do that at this stage, but she will need to be aware.

It is hard to explain that rules need to be different, when you have an NT child also and that is something we find tricky. We've been open with our daughter and explained all about Asperger's. She is very understanding of the condition and even without thinking can provide strategies to help and diffuse meltdowns with other people's children, less so for her own brother!  I think your 11 year old will be old enough to reason with and if you can try and get him/her involved with thinking of ways to help and understand your older daughter that might give him/her a role in it all.

Good luck!

Hi Song, It is the violence, hitting, trying to strangle me, throwing objects etc, swearing, refusal to do tasks and disrespectful behaviour that is causing problems. He behaves like this whenever things don't go to the personal plan in his head, despite us setting out quite clearly what the routine (eg screen time, going out, dinnertime etc) is. If he doesn't agree with the plan there is trouble and he finds it very difficult to accept household rules in the way he accepts school rules.

There is an element of separating the autistic traits, for which we cannot punish him, from the behavioural traits, which need to be controlled. He wouldn't behave like this at school and he does have to learn that it is not acceptable at home either.  He is very high functioning and does not qualify for any additional help, which means he has to learn to manage in a society which won't make any excuses for him. I know that is difficult and we are trying to help him by setting the boundaries at home and giving him the tools he needs to regulate his anger and anxiety. But we also have an NT 11 year old daughter who needs protecting from his violent outbursts as he gets older and stronger.

This whole thread is fascinating for me.  Thank you MJ and Tom for sharing.  I have a 14 year old newly diagnosed Aspergers daughter and completely get the sanctions concerns.  We also have been advised about positives only, no sanctions.  I am finding that it is hard to adapt my behaviour to deliver that consistently, but working on it (esp difficult where daughter does not have anything that she is really passionate about - if she doesn't want to put her dirty underwear in the laundry or do her teeth or homework, no amount of screen time etc will persuade her.)

Can I ask a follow up?

She is over-eating for comfort and has taken money from us to facilitate that.  I understand about the importance of the comfort to her - we have conversations about nutrition and there is a  snack box just for her at home with a sensible ration of healthy and unhealthy snacks in it (which I never allow to empty).  She knows it is wrong to take the money.  I really want to apply sanctions to ensure this behaviour of taking money never happens outside the home.  But I know that this won't help.  What can I do and how to explain to my NT 11 year old?

Many thanks

That's great to hear.  Really positive.

MJ said:

It is always day by day,

Yes, this is true.  And the transition anxiety is understandable.  I know at our day centre, if we have long holidays (like Christmas) or the clients go away on holiday, the first few days afterwards can often be difficult as they re-adjust to routines again.  Some can initially be very reluctant to come back.  And then, once they're settled, they can often be reluctant to go home again!

Hi MJ. What sort of things is he doing that you need to 'sanction' him for?

Thanks Tom, I'm sorry you had such a struggle as a child and glad you eventually found your place.

I know that I also have elements and wasn't easy as a child so I can see the traits and where my son is similar. Thanks for the link, it's interesting. I have read that in Tony Attwood's book also.

I've just picked up my son after orchestra and he was in a really good mood, I think the interlude of playing his trumpet after school and coming home really helps, which is one reason why we encourage the music. I have also had a discussion online with other parents in his year group and can let him have the evidence if needed that he isn't alone in having screen limits! Although he is much calmer about the situation this evening, I know it will fire up again at some point. 

Following your advice I have discussed with him why he was so angry over it all the last few days and established that, as I suspected, he was anxious about the transition of going back to school after the holidays. I am trying to get him to label this feeling and tell us about it rather than transferring the anxiety into anger and pushing the blame elsewhere, I know this is difficult for him to do but small steps and I've said if we can understand it we can be more understanding of him.  

I've also rewarded his good behaviour: maximum positive behaviour points in all his lessons today, passed his trumpet exam with merit and especially, coming out of school with a smile on his face and polite conversation. He has his full screen time. We discussed the fact that you thought removing the screen time as a punishment was something he would find difficult and I offered him the choice of starting with a little less and being able to gain more on daily basis but never losing it but he says (at the moment) that he prefers it the way it is and he will try hard to stay calm.

It is always day by day, but this is a good result for today and I feel a lot happier having made contact on here. Thank you so much for your advice today and the links. I hope in time I will be able to help others too.

All the best,

M

Hm.  It's very difficult, and it sounds like you are really making the effort with things like 'signposting' of limits. At work, we use things like PECS and social stories to handle these things.  We stick to routines, depending on the person.  Even then, though, it doesn't always work.  If someone has decided that day that they don't want to do something, then coercion will only aggravate the situation.  Maybe your son feels like he can get away with things more at home, and will challenge authority - something he otherwise wouldn't dare to do at school. I don't know.  One of our other people at the day centre is reasonably fine when there, but at home will throw things at his parents and smash things.  They're also at their wits' end, and we're doing what we can to work with it. Your son, too, is at the age that is often difficult with NT children, let alone having to cope with autism as well.  It's a lot for his brain to deal with.

I would seriously challenge the matter of being told that you don't qualify, because clearly some other input is needed.  A behavioural or occupational therapist, for instance.  I would keep pushing on that front.

Thinking back to how I was at that age... school was the big problem.  I sometimes wonder how I got through it.  I couldn't focus on lessons.  I couldn't get on with my peers.  My reports said things like 'Bright, but lacks application', 'shy', 'unfocused', etc.  It wasn't expected that I would amount to much.  I was bottom of my year at 14, and eventually left with no qualifications.  My parents, bless them, put up with a lot at home.  But my condition wasn't known about, and they didn't really know what to do.  They worried that I didn't want to make friends, and got me to go to a youth club - but I hated it.  I just wanted to be on my own, in my room, doing my own thing.  I had an older NT brother, but we didn't get on at all and I know he was glad when he could eventually leave home.  I behaved abominably towards him, too.  At the time, it was put down to 'delinquency'.  Much later, in my late 20s, I studied hard - at my own pace - and got into university.  There, I found an educational environment more in tune with my needs.

Hopefully, some others can provide some useful insights here.

Check out this link, too, which might help...

Different behaviour at school and at home

Dear Tom,

Thank you, that's helpful and I will read the links. My son is fine at school, bottles it all up, but doesn't give them any cause to require extra support there. He will come home and complain about a teacher who hasn't given out a promised reward for example (and I agree they should have stuck to their word but don't agree with the violent threats he makes!) or be aggressive about homework that has been set, but he won't say anything to anyone at school.

I tried to get him some counselling on behaviour/anger management but we were told we didn't qualify.

It is interesting what you say about sanctions. This is where we are stuck. I have read that you shouldn't take something away, so would it be better if we set a low screen time limit to give him the time he needs and allow him to add to that only, by good behaviour? And how? We've set limits on the xbox itself so the computer tells him time is up and as soon as that happens he is yelling and screaming at us, bombarding my inbox with requests for more time and becoming violent. I know stopping an activity is hard and transitions too, but we have warnings in place for time limits and it can't go on all night.

The thing I struggle with is that sanctions are in place at school for everybody and if he were to be even a fraction as rude there as he is at home he would get detention. I'm glad that he isn't rude and aggressive at school but we can't have him being like it at home to this extent either and surely he does need to understand that at 13, his parents are still in control in their own house and he can't do whatever he likes with nobody asking him to stop, which is where we are at the moment. I do try and take into account his Asperger's and I try to make things easier for him and we also have to try to get along as a family with an NT daughter. We have no extended family, it is just us trying to cope, so any advice at all is very gratefully appreciated. Thank you.

That's interesting.  Maybe it's the structure and routines at school that he likes.  Is he doing well academically?  Have teachers mentioned anything at all about behaviours?

The response from your GP is sadly common.  There is help out there, but it's finding it.  Most GPs, it has to be said - as well as most mental health services - have little knowledge or understanding of ASC, and often don't know what to suggest for the best.  At worst, they turn people away without hope. 

I only got my diagnosis 3 years ago, at age 56, after a very challenging lifetime!  I hated school and was bullied incessantly (most likely because of my 'difference').  At home - particularly around puberty, and having to cope with all those hormonal changes - I was an absolute nightmare.  My mother came with me to my diagnostic interview.  She said I was like a 'Jekyll and Hyde' in my childhood and youth, with volatile moods.  I know, looking back on it now, that I was horrible to her in many ways.  I treated her with contempt, and was extremely verbally abusive.  It kills me to think of it now, because she was so stoic in the face of it. It was a struggle to get that diagnosis, though.  My GP kept sending me to mental health services, which made matters worse.  Finally, a therapist I was seeing insisted on the direct referral to autism services - and my GP was open-minded enough to admit that she was out of her depth, and went ahead.

You would think, with all of the coverage that autism is now getting in the media, etc., that understanding would improve with the medical profession and educationalists.  Sadly, that's not necessarily the case.

I'm sorry to hear you are going through this and hope you get a diagnosis soon. 

We don't get any help as my son is very high functioning and he controls himself so well at school that there is no evidence or need for support there. He bottles it all up for home. We've spoken to our GP who is very understanding, says this is extremely common for ASD of the Asperger's type, but he admits there is next to no real help for families like ours. 

Good luck, I'm sure you are doing a great job.

Phew!  It's not an easy read, MJ.  There's so much I could say - both as an Aspie and as someone who works with largely low-functioning autistic people.

I'll assume that, since your son's diagnosis, you've done a deal of research about the condition, so you have a reasonable idea about the neurodiverse mindset and the reasons for behaviours.  The idea of 'sanctions', though, immediately sets off alarms in my head!  Before I went into care work with a special focus on autism, I worked for several years in general special needs care.  In those settings, it was a constant source of frustration to me that autistic people got lumped together with everyone else and were expected to follow the same rules as everyone else.  I used to witness staff members telling off and otherwise punishing autistic people for behaving autistically.  I used to take issue with things, but get told stuff like 'They have to learn they can't always have their own way, just like everyone else does,' etc.  Okay.  But what these people didn't understand is that for autistic people, that learning process is entirely different.  It requires an approach which my current employer takes: non-aversive, and proactive.  So we'd never have a situation where, say, someone would get told that they cannot have this unless they do this.  'If you don't tidy your room, I'll take your games away,' or 'You've spent too much time on your computer now, so I'm switching it off'.  Instead, we work with each person over a long course of time to get to understand their behaviours, traits, interests, triggers, etc.  Then we gradually introduce adaptations that can lead to positive improvements.  We have one lad who started with us just over a year ago.  He's reasonably high-functioning, but still needs 24-hour one-to-one care.  He has road sense... but, if something triggers him (a dog, for instance, or a loud noise), he can run out into the road to escape from it.  When he first came to us, he was very rigid in his routines, and would very frequently have 'meltdowns' (I hate that term, but it's one that most people understand!)  Lots of things triggered him: other people around him, things being moved around in the day centre, doors being left open, etc.  We discovered that the only thing that would settle his anxiety at these times was to give him an iPad which was preset with a couple of his favourite videos.  Sometimes, he would have that iPad all day.  Now, after a year of patient and careful work with support staff and behaviour therapists, he's much more settled.  He goes out much more into the community.  He's fine being around other service users. He's more tolerant of changes.  And sometimes he can now go an entire day without needing the iPad.  All of that was achieved without punishments or other aversive methods.  It was entirely proactive. 

Your son is clearly much more high-functioning than that.  But he will still need an approach that takes full account of his condition, and it will be quite different to the approach that we would normally take with neurotypical people. 

I do feel for you in this.  I know what difficulties and frustrations it can throw up, and the strain it can put on families.  You clearly need more help than you seem to be getting.  What input do you have from the school?  How supportive are they?  Is his behaviour different there?  Also, have you had any support through people like behaviour therapists?  That's important - though I don't know what the provision is like in mainstream services.

Check out these links, if you haven't already, to see what else might be available to you.  Also, if you look at the right-hand column, you'll see a list of 'Related' threads which might offer you some further insights and guidance.

Family Life

Understanding Behaviour

Autism Services Directory

Best regards,

Tom

Hello,

I don't have any solutions but i can totally understand what you are experiencing. My 11 year old daughter is awaiting a diagnosis of ( Autism) Asperger's . What you are describing is a regular occurrence in our house and I personally find it difficult on where to draw the line.  My other children are also scared of her explosive behaviour and i find myself allowing her to get away with much more than the others.  I feel like i am treading on eggshells much of the time.  If i remove her mobile phone it causes huge uproar/ meltdown as she feels it is unfair, she just finds it impossible to understand, the inability to understand others feelings or emotions causes real problems. Its much more than just a difficult child.  Much of what some of my other family members don't seem to understand. The abuse i receive from her is very very hurtful and makes me feel inadequate as a parent,. The effects of her behaviour has real negative effects on the rest of the house.   I turned to this website today for the first time and it was strange to read your story as my feelings are very similar to yours.

Do you get any support from any local services or school ? or anything from anywhere?